{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/whorl/1470", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "whorl", "thread": { "id": 1470, "subject": "Voyage of the Whorl: Assumptions", "messages": 3, "voices": 3, "first": "2001-09-03T11:45:45+00:00", "last": "2001-09-05T14:41:05+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Talarican", "address": "exultnttalarican at mindspring.com" }, "date": "2001-09-03T11:45:45+00:00", "subject": "(whorl) Voyage of the Whorl: Assumptions", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "We now know that roughly a thousand years has passed on \"the red sun whorl\"\nsince the _Whorl_ was launched (_Green's_, ch 22), although only about 332\nyears had passed subjectively on the _Whorl_ (_Calde_, ch 5).\n\nThis is a strong indication that the _Whorl_ attained relativistic velocity\nduring its voyage, producing a significant relativistic time dilation. It is\npossible, given this information and a few reasonable assumptions about the\nflight profile which are consistent with the text, to estimate Blue and\nGreen's (HRTA \"B&G\") distance from Urth, and perhaps even guess at the\nidentity of their sun, as well as elucidate the flight characteristics of\nthe Whorl and its voyage.\n\nSome observations from the text are used to formulate basic assumptions:\n\n1. The actual trip time experienced by the Cargo seems to have been about\n300 years, assuming it arrived in orbit in B&G's system about thirty years\nprior to the time in which BLS is set, which event apparently set off this\n\"war of the gods\" as Echidna sought to prevent the Cargo from disembarking\nthe _Whorl_ (_Lake_, ch. 11, _Return_, ch. 17). Interestingly enough, the\nProlocutor's encyclical in _Calde_ ch. 5 is dated the year 332! What could\nbe referenced other than the subjective elapsed time since the voyage\ncommenced? This fits almost too neatly.\n\n2. The best estimate of the elapsed time back on Urth appears to be 1100\nyears. This is based mainly on the accepted figure for the period between\nthe zenith of Typhon's reign to Severian's time (*1), reinforced somewhat by\nHorn's guesses.\n\nUse of the data in _Green's_ ch. 22 does indeed lead to longer elapsed Urth\ntimes, but it increases the required peak velocity even more\nunrealistically. Horn discounted this figure once it was arrived at, saying\nthe rate of abandonment must have been higher at one time. The explanation\nis probably very simple: Typhon's \"press gangs\" must have depopulated entire\nquarters of Nessus in a relatively short period for his colonization\nprogramme.\n\n3. _Whorl_ is simply honkin' HUGE, having been formed of the mass of an\nentire sizeable asteroid (_Green's_ ch. 25; a Neighbor stated it explicitly)\nhollowed by melting and centrifugal force. \"Gravity\" for the interior is\nsupplied by centrifugal force. The Cargo do not seem to have noticed any\nsignificant changes in the magnitude or direction of their \"gravity\"\nthroughout their remembered history, therefore all accelerations acting upon\nthe Whorl during its voyage, for thrust, changes of direction, and the like,\nmust be very slight by comparison with the centrifugal \"gravity\".\n\n4. As a corollary to the foregoing, the Cargo do not seem to have been at\nall aware of when the Whorl arrived in the B&G system thirty years before\nthe time of BLS; i.e., no inexplicable motions seem to have occurred, nor\nwere Cargo ordered to strap themselves into crash couches or any such thing.\nTherefore accelerations acting on the _Whorl_, from the earliest memories of\nthe original Cargo to the time of BLS, were so mild they apparently went\nunnoticed.\n\nThe nature of the _Whorl_'s power plant was never explicitly divulged, but\nit must be tremendously powerful and provided with an astronomically vast\nfuel supply, even if it were antimatter. That fuel must be stored somewhere,\nbut we're never shown precisely where. We could explore the possibility that\nthe _Whorl_ is a sort of low-acceleration Bussard Ramjet design, which would\nobviate the fuel supply problem nicely. Presumably, enough surplus fuel\ncould be gathered by a B-R to power that fluorescent-tube-on-steroids and\nthe other support systems on the _Whorl_. However, as we will see, a Bussard\ndrive is problematical.\n\nLarry Niven wrote extensively about B-R craft that fly between stars at a\nsteady one gee acceleration, racking up considerable time dilation. Halfway\nto the destination, the craft must \"turn over\" and decelerate the rest of\nthe way in order to be at approximate rest with respect to the destination.\nNiven's ramships' 1 gee acceleration creates gravity for the passengers (for\nwhom \"down\" is toward the stern of the craft).\n\nThe _Whorl_ cannot be accelerating at one gee for most of the trip; its\n\"gravity\" is supplied by centrifugal force, therefore it does not generate\nenough acceleration to be noticed by the Cargo. Doubtless it is so massive\n(the mass of an asteroid) that even inconceivably powerful thrusters can\nonly nudge it along, like the engines of an oil supertanker. Furthermore, an\nobject formed of presumably an asteroid softened and hollowed by \"glass\nblowing\" with centrifugal force, might not withstand the stress of high\nacceleration.\n\n(*1) The death of Ymar, a contemporary of the end of Typhon's reign, is\nsupposed to have been about a chiliad prior to Severian's time, per Mantis,\nin LU A&E #2, based on a remark made in an article in _Thrust_, regarding\nthe assassin Sev found in the Second House. It follows that Typhon probably\nlaunched the _Whorl_ roughly a century or so earlier, before the Old Sun\ndimmed and the Conciliator appeared.\n(and when did Horn ever see ruins one chiliad old before visiting Nessus? He\n's seen buildings up to 300 years old, not counting the Neighbors' far older\nruins that are probably more durable than those of humans).\n\nTalarican\n\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2001-09-05T14:23:56+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) Voyage of the Whorl: Assumptions", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "--- Talarican wrote:\n..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "(*1) The death of Ymar, a contemporary of the end of Typhon's reign, is\nsupposed to have been about a chiliad prior to Severian's time, per\nMantis,\nin LU A&E #2, based on a remark made in an article in _Thrust_,\nregarding\nthe assassin Sev found in the Second House. It follows that Typhon\nprobably\nlaunched the _Whorl_ roughly a century or so earlier, before the Old Sun\ndimmed and the Conciliator appeared." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This stuff is all very interesting!\n\nI suppose I'm unlikely to look up the references, but what's _Thrust_ and\nwho made the remark?\n\nAs for the century earlier, I don't follow that. Typhon had two heads\nwhen the _Whorl_ was launched, and he still did when he \"retired to his\nblameless couch\". Could he have been in that unpleasant state for a\ncentury? Or are you suggesting that Typhon has performed the same\nmaneuver more than once?\n...\n\nJerry Friedman" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "ddanehy at siebel.com" }, "date": "2001-09-05T14:41:05+00:00", "subject": "RE: (whorl) Voyage of the Whorl: Assumptions", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jerry Friedman wrote:\nAs for the century earlier, I don't follow that. Typhon had two heads\nwhen the _Whorl_ was launched, and he still did when he \"retired to his\nblameless couch\". Could he have been in that unpleasant state for a\ncentury? " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Indeed, no -- it's clear from his remarks to Severian (in SotL) that \nhe expected this to be a very temporary state -- long enough for his\ninvoluntary nervous system to learn its way around Piaton's body, no\nmore, and then he'd have Piaton removed. Nothing he says implies that\nthis expectation was mistaken (other than the delay enforced by his\n(or their) having been freeze-dried for a chiliad or so, so it seems\nwe should conclude that his dessication and Ozymandification came not \ntoo long after his operation.\n\n--Dan'l\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] } ] }