{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/whorl/1522", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "whorl", "thread": { "id": 1522, "subject": "more on time", "messages": 4, "voices": 4, "first": "2002-01-06T23:08:49+00:00", "last": "2002-01-08T12:57:41+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "maa32", "address": "maa32 at dana.ucc.nau.edu" }, "date": "2002-01-06T23:08:49+00:00", "subject": "more on time", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Michael Andre-Druissi states" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But this isn't time travel: it is instantaneous travel across hundreds of\n light years of space. It is \"real time\" on Urth, just as it is on \nBlue." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " The Claw bends time in THE BOOK OF THE NEW SUN, and Severian travels\n through time in URTH OF THE NEW SUN, yes. But Silkhorn's trip to Urth \nis\n not a form of time travel (except in the completely different sense \nthat\n time has been negated from the time/space matrix, and the party \nastrally\n crosses vast space in zero time)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What I am saying is that it IS time travel and that Urth IS Blue (or rather, \nthat Ushas is Blue) and that the new sun has melted the polar ice caps and \ncaused the sea to be less salty, that the orbit of Lune (called \"Green\" by \nHoof) has been altered, and that the vanished people are the remnants of a \nvegetable/human civilization. (Hoof goes at great length to say that the \ndifferences in the ocean are its color from the sun and stars, its saltiness, \nand the closeness of \"green\". All of these changes can be accounted for by \nthe coming of the New Sun - I just can't figure out why that particular time \nis the one that draws Silk. In addition, he says that the narrator's voice \nsounds as if it was spoken long ago in a place far away. I don't think they \ntravel anywhere - in addition, Juganu says that Inhumu are everywhere (and \nJahlee casts suspicions on Merryn), whereas the narrator previously said that \nonly three whorls needed to be considered when thinking of the inhumu.) The \nanchor that allows the travel to that particular point is unclear to me if \nUrth and Blue are one location (but I think it might be the Malrubius/Silk \nconnection - would a cloned embryo have an affinity for the soul of another \ncloned embryo? Or perhaps it is close to the last time that Cillinia can be \nlain to rest by a human being, since humans can't normally survive underwater \n- I can't figure it out, but there are a lot of clues in that chapter that \npoint to Urth being blue that I think would be imprudent to ignore). There \nare too many weird bits of contiguity between the Blue of the new Short Sun \nwhorl (like that big wall underwater that Seawrack talks about) for the \npossibility that the two planets are not the same to be dismissed out of hand.\n I fully understand that it SEEMS that they are two different planets in the \nsame continuum and that the only reason Silk can go there is because Rigoglio \nwants to be home, but I think there is more going on with that. Also, as I've \nsaid before, the narrator says the only return to the past is through dreams, \ntalks of reaching through the past to grab a man with two heads in a dream, he \ntalks about his astral travel as a dream, and the greater Scylla might be the \nsame as the mother - in fact, Silk asks the greater Scylla about Seawrack, \nthen seems to find Seawrack without consulting the Mother when he returns to \nBlue.\nHoof also talks about constructing a sea anchor at some length in chapter 17 \nof Return to the Whorl. An anchor keeps you in one place. My theory here \ntouches on the idea that Blue and Urth do not exist at the same time, and the \nvast distance that separates the red sun whorl from Blue is one of time \nINSTEAD of space (except for the space that the planets have traveled through \nthe universe in that great expanse of time).\nMarc Aramini" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andy Robertson", "address": "andywrobertson at clara.co.uk" }, "date": "2002-01-06T23:57:36+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) more on time", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "----- Original Message -----" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"maa32\" \nof Return to the Whorl. An anchor keeps you in one place. My theory here\ntouches on the idea that Blue and Urth do not exist at the same time, and\nthe\nvast distance that separates the red sun whorl from Blue is one of time\nINSTEAD of space (except for the space that the planets have traveled\nthrough\nthe universe in that great expanse of time)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Do you know, I almost believe this.\n\nIt would be a parallel with Severian's time-warping experiences on The\nShip -\n\nWolfe obviously understands enough relativity to know that FTL travel and\ntime travel are the same thing. The Ship, leaving this space-time\ncontinuum for a higher one, returns to this one at an earlier time.\n\nMoreover there is a long tradition in Catholic theology, going back to\nBoethius, of God being \"outside time\" (just another example of the fact\nthat the roots of modern physics are partly set in medaeval theology)\n\nAs Severian moves toward he nature of God he gains some of this ability, to\nwalk the corridors of time.\n\n\nBut if Blue is Ushas in very fact, why is the biology so different?\n\n Andy R" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Andre-Driussi", "address": "mantis at siriusfiction.com" }, "date": "2002-01-07T00:41:08+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) more on time", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Marc Aramini,\n\nOkay, so you must also think, therefore, that the Whorl made a big circular\ntrip, since it clearly left Urth and you think it has returned to Urth.\n(Sorry I'm being so slow.)\n\nWe discussed such things on the list, years ago. When the archives are\nstraightened out it will be easy to see.\n\nI take back what I said before: it really would demolish your theory were\nyou to accept the premise that the star of Blue/Green is not Sol.\n\n=mantis=\n\n\nSirius Fiction\nbooklets on Gene Wolfe, John Crowley\nhttp://www.siriusfiction.com/" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Kieran Cleary", "address": "kcleary at jb.man.ac.uk" }, "date": "2002-01-08T12:57:41+00:00", "subject": "(whorl) more on time", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ahh, this takes me back. I'm afraid I too still nurse the\nsickly Blue/Green=Urth/Lune hypothesis. Poor thing, but there's life in it\nyet. \n\nIf this idea is to have legs again, can anyone address the lack of support\nin the text for lower gravity on Green, besides alarmingly tall trees?\n\nKieran C." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sun, 6 Jan 2002, maa32 wrote:\nMichael Andre-Druissi states" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "But this isn't time travel: it is instantaneous travel across hundreds of\n light years of space. It is \"real time\" on Urth, just as it is on \nBlue." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " The Claw bends time in THE BOOK OF THE NEW SUN, and Severian travels\n through time in URTH OF THE NEW SUN, yes. But Silkhorn's trip to Urth \nis\n not a form of time travel (except in the completely different sense \nthat\n time has been negated from the time/space matrix, and the party \nastrally\n crosses vast space in zero time)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What I am saying is that it IS time travel and that Urth IS Blue (or rather, \nthat Ushas is Blue) and that the new sun has melted the polar ice caps and \ncaused the sea to be less salty, that the orbit of Lune (called \"Green\" by \nHoof) has been altered, and that the vanished people are the remnants of a \nvegetable/human civilization. (Hoof goes at great length to say that the \ndifferences in the ocean are its color from the sun and stars, its saltiness, \nand the closeness of \"green\". All of these changes can be accounted for by \nthe coming of the New Sun - I just can't figure out why that particular time \nis the one that draws Silk. In addition, he says that the narrator's voice \nsounds as if it was spoken long ago in a place far away. I don't think they \ntravel anywhere - in addition, Juganu says that Inhumu are everywhere (and \nJahlee casts suspicions on Merryn), whereas the narrator previously said that \nonly three whorls needed to be considered when thinking of the inhumu.) The \nanchor that allows the travel to that particular point is unclear to me if \nUrth and Blue are one location (but I think it might be the Malrubius/Silk \nconnection - would a cloned embryo have an affinity for the soul of another \ncloned embryo? Or perhaps it is close to the last time that Cillinia can be \nlain to rest by a human being, since humans can't normally survive underwater \n- I can't figure it out, but there are a lot of clues in that chapter that \npoint to Urth being blue that I think would be imprudent to ignore). There \nare too many weird bits of contiguity between the Blue of the new Short Sun \nwhorl (like that big wall underwater that Seawrack talks about) for the \npossibility that the two planets are not the same to be dismissed out of hand.\n I fully understand that it SEEMS that they are two different planets in the \nsame continuum and that the only reason Silk can go there is because Rigoglio \nwants to be home, but I think there is more going on with that. Also, as I've \nsaid before, the narrator says the only return to the past is through dreams, \ntalks of reaching through the past to grab a man with two heads in a dream, he \ntalks about his astral travel as a dream, and the greater Scylla might be the \nsame as the mother - in fact, Silk asks the greater Scylla about Seawrack, \nthen seems to find Seawrack without consulting the Mother when he returns to \nBlue.\nHoof also talks about constructing a sea anchor at some length in chapter 17 \nof Return to the Whorl. An anchor keeps you in one place. My theory here \ntouches on the idea that Blue and Urth do not exist at the same time, and the \nvast distance that separates the red sun whorl from Blue is one of time \nINSTEAD of space (except for the space that the planets have traveled through \nthe universe in that great expanse of time).\nMarc Aramini\n\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] } ] }