# more on time *The Whorl list — 4 messages, 4 voices, 06 Jan 2002* > Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright > in each message remains with the person who wrote it. > Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original > archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than > retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact. --- ### maa32 *06 Jan 2002, 23:08* Michael Andre-Druissi states > But this isn't time travel: it is instantaneous travel across hundreds of > light years of space. It is "real time" on Urth, just as it is on > Blue. The Claw bends time in THE BOOK OF THE NEW SUN, and Severian travels through time in URTH OF THE NEW SUN, yes. But Silkhorn's trip to Urth is not a form of time travel (except in the completely different sense that time has been negated from the time/space matrix, and the party astrally crosses vast space in zero time). What I am saying is that it IS time travel and that Urth IS Blue (or rather, that Ushas is Blue) and that the new sun has melted the polar ice caps and caused the sea to be less salty, that the orbit of Lune (called "Green" by Hoof) has been altered, and that the vanished people are the remnants of a vegetable/human civilization. (Hoof goes at great length to say that the differences in the ocean are its color from the sun and stars, its saltiness, and the closeness of "green". All of these changes can be accounted for by the coming of the New Sun - I just can't figure out why that particular time is the one that draws Silk. In addition, he says that the narrator's voice sounds as if it was spoken long ago in a place far away. I don't think they travel anywhere - in addition, Juganu says that Inhumu are everywhere (and Jahlee casts suspicions on Merryn), whereas the narrator previously said that only three whorls needed to be considered when thinking of the inhumu.) The anchor that allows the travel to that particular point is unclear to me if Urth and Blue are one location (but I think it might be the Malrubius/Silk connection - would a cloned embryo have an affinity for the soul of another cloned embryo? Or perhaps it is close to the last time that Cillinia can be lain to rest by a human being, since humans can't normally survive underwater - I can't figure it out, but there are a lot of clues in that chapter that point to Urth being blue that I think would be imprudent to ignore). There are too many weird bits of contiguity between the Blue of the new Short Sun whorl (like that big wall underwater that Seawrack talks about) for the possibility that the two planets are not the same to be dismissed out of hand. I fully understand that it SEEMS that they are two different planets in the same continuum and that the only reason Silk can go there is because Rigoglio wants to be home, but I think there is more going on with that. Also, as I've said before, the narrator says the only return to the past is through dreams, talks of reaching through the past to grab a man with two heads in a dream, he talks about his astral travel as a dream, and the greater Scylla might be the same as the mother - in fact, Silk asks the greater Scylla about Seawrack, then seems to find Seawrack without consulting the Mother when he returns to Blue. Hoof also talks about constructing a sea anchor at some length in chapter 17 of Return to the Whorl. An anchor keeps you in one place. My theory here touches on the idea that Blue and Urth do not exist at the same time, and the vast distance that separates the red sun whorl from Blue is one of time INSTEAD of space (except for the space that the planets have traveled through the universe in that great expanse of time). Marc Aramini --- ### Andy Robertson *06 Jan 2002, 23:57 · follows maa32* ----- Original Message ----- > From: "maa32" > of Return to the Whorl. An anchor keeps you in one place. My theory here > touches on the idea that Blue and Urth do not exist at the same time, and > the > vast distance that separates the red sun whorl from Blue is one of time > INSTEAD of space (except for the space that the planets have traveled > through > the universe in that great expanse of time). Do you know, I almost believe this. It would be a parallel with Severian's time-warping experiences on The Ship - Wolfe obviously understands enough relativity to know that FTL travel and time travel are the same thing. The Ship, leaving this space-time continuum for a higher one, returns to this one at an earlier time. Moreover there is a long tradition in Catholic theology, going back to Boethius, of God being "outside time" (just another example of the fact that the roots of modern physics are partly set in medaeval theology) As Severian moves toward he nature of God he gains some of this ability, to walk the corridors of time. But if Blue is Ushas in very fact, why is the biology so different? Andy R --- ### Michael Andre-Driussi *07 Jan 2002, 00:41 · follows Andy Robertson* Marc Aramini, Okay, so you must also think, therefore, that the Whorl made a big circular trip, since it clearly left Urth and you think it has returned to Urth. (Sorry I'm being so slow.) We discussed such things on the list, years ago. When the archives are straightened out it will be easy to see. I take back what I said before: it really would demolish your theory were you to accept the premise that the star of Blue/Green is not Sol. =mantis= Sirius Fiction booklets on Gene Wolfe, John Crowley http://www.siriusfiction.com/ --- ### Kieran Cleary *08 Jan 2002, 12:57 · follows Michael Andre-Driussi* Ahh, this takes me back. I'm afraid I too still nurse the sickly Blue/Green=Urth/Lune hypothesis. Poor thing, but there's life in it yet. If this idea is to have legs again, can anyone address the lack of support in the text for lower gravity on Green, besides alarmingly tall trees? Kieran C. > On Sun, 6 Jan 2002, maa32 wrote: > Michael Andre-Druissi states >> But this isn't time travel: it is instantaneous travel across hundreds of >> light years of space. It is "real time" on Urth, just as it is on >> Blue. > The Claw bends time in THE BOOK OF THE NEW SUN, and Severian travels > through time in URTH OF THE NEW SUN, yes. But Silkhorn's trip to Urth > is > not a form of time travel (except in the completely different sense > that > time has been negated from the time/space matrix, and the party > astrally > crosses vast space in zero time). > What I am saying is that it IS time travel and that Urth IS Blue (or rather, > that Ushas is Blue) and that the new sun has melted the polar ice caps and > caused the sea to be less salty, that the orbit of Lune (called "Green" by > Hoof) has been altered, and that the vanished people are the remnants of a > vegetable/human civilization. (Hoof goes at great length to say that the > differences in the ocean are its color from the sun and stars, its saltiness, > and the closeness of "green". All of these changes can be accounted for by > the coming of the New Sun - I just can't figure out why that particular time > is the one that draws Silk. In addition, he says that the narrator's voice > sounds as if it was spoken long ago in a place far away. I don't think they > travel anywhere - in addition, Juganu says that Inhumu are everywhere (and > Jahlee casts suspicions on Merryn), whereas the narrator previously said that > only three whorls needed to be considered when thinking of the inhumu.) The > anchor that allows the travel to that particular point is unclear to me if > Urth and Blue are one location (but I think it might be the Malrubius/Silk > connection - would a cloned embryo have an affinity for the soul of another > cloned embryo? Or perhaps it is close to the last time that Cillinia can be > lain to rest by a human being, since humans can't normally survive underwater > - I can't figure it out, but there are a lot of clues in that chapter that > point to Urth being blue that I think would be imprudent to ignore). There > are too many weird bits of contiguity between the Blue of the new Short Sun > whorl (like that big wall underwater that Seawrack talks about) for the > possibility that the two planets are not the same to be dismissed out of hand. > I fully understand that it SEEMS that they are two different planets in the > same continuum and that the only reason Silk can go there is because Rigoglio > wants to be home, but I think there is more going on with that. Also, as I've > said before, the narrator says the only return to the past is through dreams, > talks of reaching through the past to grab a man with two heads in a dream, he > talks about his astral travel as a dream, and the greater Scylla might be the > same as the mother - in fact, Silk asks the greater Scylla about Seawrack, > then seems to find Seawrack without consulting the Mother when he returns to > Blue. > Hoof also talks about constructing a sea anchor at some length in chapter 17 > of Return to the Whorl. An anchor keeps you in one place. My theory here > touches on the idea that Blue and Urth do not exist at the same time, and the > vast distance that separates the red sun whorl from Blue is one of time > INSTEAD of space (except for the space that the planets have traveled through > the universe in that great expanse of time). > Marc Aramini > > > > *This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun. ---