{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/whorl/154", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "whorl", "thread": { "id": 154, "subject": "There are Doors", "messages": 5, "voices": 3, "first": "1997-03-11T09:11:05+00:00", "last": "1997-03-14T21:54:16+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Doug Eigsti", "address": "douge at nti.com" }, "date": "1997-03-11T09:11:05+00:00", "subject": "(whorl) There are Doors", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "******* ******* SPOILER ALERT ******* **********\n\n\n******* Information concerning THERE ARE DOORS follows **********\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\tI, too, am a fan of THERE ARE DOORS. I liked the way Wolfe used\nthe doors as literal passageways into alternate realities. Whenever a\ncharacter went through a door I found myself anticipating the clues that\nwould tell me if he had made a reality jump or if it were just a mundane\ntransit. The mystery of the situation, putting the character through a\nlabyrinth of shifting realities without a flash of light or earth shaking\nindicators to tell the reader that a shift had been made, was expertly\nhandled. It put a surreal slant on everyday events, reminding me of Philip\nK. Dick. The reader is forced to question the 'reality' of each situation.\nIt is representative of Wolfe's usual techniques for disorienting the\nreader to the same degree as the protagonist. It is on my list of books to\nread again, along with PEACE. Outside of the NEW SUN and LONG SUN series\nit is a book I would use to introduce a friend to Wolfe. \n\n=Talon=\n\n\n\nQuestions or problems to whorl-owner at lists.best.com" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Patri10629", "address": "patri10629 at aol.com" }, "date": "1997-03-11T21:31:18+00:00", "subject": "(whorl) Re: There are doors", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "JBjordan,\n\nPatrick O'Leary wrote (and you quoted me) \"I had met him(Wolfe) earlier and\nhad mentioned Hating THERE ARE DOORS. \"\n\nJBjordan wrote:\n\n\"Briefly, why? I'll admit I did not understand why the Catholic Church\n(Italian Restaurant) would want to hook up the main character with an idol\ngoddess, but Gene's explanation to me is that the Catholic Church does\nincorporate pre-Christian religions, though in a purified and transformed\nway. On the whole, however, I found it a delightful and thought-provoking\nbook. So, what did you not like about it? Instruct us....I hope this is not\n\"off topic.\" I think understanding \"Long Sun\" will involve understanding\nWolfe as a whole, especially his religious views.\"\n\n\nI, too, hope this is not too off-topic. And I doubt it is very instructive.\nBut this is one reader's reaction to one of the few Wolfe novels I didn't\ncare for.\n\nRather than try to recollect I'll quote my reaction at the time...regarding\nmy \"Hating THERE ARE DOORS\"\n\n(Quoting myself) Patrick O'Leary wrote:\n\n I must say it was one of the most unique reading experiences I've had. I\nfound it strangely unsettling and riveting, yet not at all enjoyable. I\ncouldn't fault the writing--it was fine. But it satisfied none of the\nappetites I bring to fiction--even the desire to be surprised--it was all\ndrudgingly surprising or not in a rather ephemeral way. Then I realized how\nmuch the book had fumagated my consciousness (believe me, I tried to find a\nbetter verb). I lived for days in a daze--cloudy, befuddled--my thoughts full\nof ellipsises. Then, I understood that he had not simply written the portrait\nof a man lost between two realities...Wolfe had actually, accurately\nrecreated the moorless consciousness of dreams (our closest proximity to\nreality hopping). He got it all--the tantalizing innuendoes of desire that\nare never quite consummated, the dead ends, and frustrating returns, the\nincomplete sentences, the physical detail trembling with meaning yet\nmaddeningly obscure, the sudden friendships and allegiances that require no\nforeplay or proof. I could go on--dreams are one of my favorite obsessions. \n\nBUT--and this is crucial--I DID NOT ENJOY IT. Now, how does one accomplish\nthat? So while I'm saluting his amazing creative powers, a truly rare ability\nto create an altered consciousness--not simply sub-create an alternate\nreality--I'm thinking, what good is all of it if doesn't move me? What does\nit say for a novel who's only living character is a doll? Wolfe goes way\nbeyond the postmodern hi-jinks of defeating expectations (which is really\njust returning the reader to self- or reader-consciousness) he actually\nrecreates the hero's continual resuspension of belief. It occurs to me how\nodd all this must sound if you've never read the book!! My bottom line is I\nthink Wolfe has really accomplished something--a Tour de force, in fact--but\nI doubt it's something I have any use for! I wonder if I'm alone in this\nfeeling.\"\n\nThat sort of sums it up. It's very probable that I didn't \"Get\" it. But, as I\ntold Gene, \"THERE ARE DOORS nearly prevented me from experiencing the\nexquisite pleasures of THE BOOK OF THE NEW SUN.\"\n\nInterestingly, recently in an online interview, when Wolfe was asked the pick\nhis favorite of his own novels, he chose THERE ARE DOORS. \n\nAw, what does he know, anyway?:)\n\nBy the way, JB, I enjoyed the interview with Wolfe you did.\n\nbest\n\nPatrick O'Leary\n\nQuestions or problems to whorl-owner at lists.best.com" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Wesley Parsons (7065)", "address": "wrp at adorno.com" }, "date": "1997-03-12T11:32:14+00:00", "subject": "(whorl) Re: There are Doors", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "PMJI, but I've always been a big fan of _There Are Door_. The creativity\nbehind the premise of the alternate universe should not be overlooked. In\nour world, the primary burden of sex and childbearing is on women. \nThey run the risk of being tied down by pregnancy and child care; the\nman is (mostly) free to hang around and help or not. Considerable\ncultural energy goes into keeping men in the picture to assist women in\nchild rearing. You could point to much of our cultural baggage (family,\nmarriage, e.g.) as arising form this biology.\n\nWolfe changes this fact so that men bear a burden from sex and child\nbearing as well -- they die shortly after sexual intercourse. Women have\na long-term but bearable burden; men have a very short-term and almost\nunbearable burden. How does this change society?\n\nWolfe suggest some things: worship of females (the idol); males as an\noppressed class; substitutes for real women (the doll); some retardation\nof technology; massively enhanced significance to the sex act by both\nsexes. I recall Wolfe says at one point in the book there should be even\nmore differences, but he keeps the alternate society sufficiently similar to\nours to make his points meaningful.\n\nWes Parsons\n\nQuestions or problems to whorl-owner at lists.best.com" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Doug Eigsti", "address": "douge at nti.com" }, "date": "1997-03-14T15:09:29+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) Re: There are doors", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Patrick O'Leary, (and all 'befuddled' by THERE ARE DOORS);\n\n\tWhen I read the description below I find that it approximates my \nown feelings, except that, somehow, I liked the experience. I repeat the \ncomment for clarity:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "(Quoting myself) Patrick O'Leary wrote:\n\n I must say it was one of the most unique reading experiences I've had. I\nfound it strangely unsettling and riveting, yet not at all enjoyable. I\ncouldn't fault the writing--it was fine. But it satisfied none of the\nappetites I bring to fiction--even the desire to be surprised--it was all\ndrudgingly surprising or not in a rather ephemeral way. Then I realized how\nmuch the book had fumagated my consciousness (believe me, I tried to find a\nbetter verb). I lived for days in a daze--cloudy, befuddled--my thoughts full\nof ellipsises. Then, I understood that he had not simply written the portrait\nof a man lost between two realities...Wolfe had actually, accurately\nrecreated the moorless consciousness of dreams (our closest proximity to\nreality hopping). He got it all--the tantalizing innuendoes of desire that\nare never quite consummated, the dead ends, and frustrating returns, the\nincomplete sentences, the physical detail trembling with meaning yet\nmaddeningly obscure, the sudden friendships and allegiances that require no\nforeplay or proof. I could go on--dreams are one of my favorite obsessions. \n\nBUT--and this is crucial--I DID NOT ENJOY IT. Now, how does one accomplish\nthat? So while I'm saluting his amazing creative powers, a truly rare ability\nto create an altered consciousness--not simply sub-create an alternate\nreality--I'm thinking, what good is all of it if doesn't move me? What does\nit say for a novel who's only living character is a doll? Wolfe goes way\nbeyond the postmodern hi-jinks of defeating expectations (which is really\njust returning the reader to self- or reader-consciousness) he actually\nrecreates the hero's continual resuspension of belief. It occurs to me how\nodd all this must sound if you've never read the book!! My bottom line is I\nthink Wolfe has really accomplished something--a Tour de force, in fact--but\nI doubt it's something I have any use for! I wonder if I'm alone in this\nfeeling.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\tThis seems, to me, to be a review by a reader deeply effected by\nthe book. I think the feelings THERE ARE DOORS evoked were, perhaps, just\nthose Wolfe had intended. Such strong emotions are not easily provoked\nfrom a work of fiction and would be a challenge for any writer. Wolfe has\nstruck a chord with this work. I feel the same way about Speilberg's\nSHINDLER'S LIST. Watching it is agonizing, but the emotions are true.\nConstant contentment is unsettling. \n\n\t I think Master Ultan said it best:\n\n\tI began, as most young people do, by reading the books I enjoyed, \nbut I found that narrowed my pleasure...\n\t\t\t(THE SHADOW OF THE TORTURER, p. 44.5 paperback)\n\n=Talon=\n\nQuestions or problems to whorl-owner at lists.best.com" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Patri10629", "address": "patri10629 at aol.com" }, "date": "1997-03-14T21:54:16+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) Re: There are doors", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dear Talon,\n\nThat was very naughty. \n\nVery polite. And wonderful. And true.\n\nI will not attempt to top it:)\n\nbest\n\nPatrick O'Leary\n\nPS: Yer mother wears army boots.\n\n\n\nQuestions or problems to whorl-owner at lists.best.com" } ] } ] }