Subject: (whorl) Pike/Quetzal, and other ?s

From: Reusch <newsun at freeway.net>
Date: Tue, 08 Apr 1997 21:27:00 +0000

[Posted from WHORL, the mailing list for Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun]

Hi everyone.
I've been lurking awhile, sifting through the archives. You people take 
your Wolfe seriously! I've had a lot of fun reading your thoughts, ideas, 
speculations, arguments, jabs. 
One point that I've been having trouble swallowing, though, is the old 
Pike's ghost scenario. I don't buy either argument that's been posted 
here; that it was either Quetzal or a computer image. What would be the 
point of either? I think that there's more to this scene, some tie 
between Quetzal and Pike. I think that it was Quetzal flying out the 
window, and then Silk sees Pike. Wolfe is linking the one with the other. 
Why, I haven't figured out yet.
Mantis, great job witht the Moses link. It's been a while since I've read 
Joseph Campbell, and longer still since I've read the story of Moses, but 
is there any similar event in Moses' story? Was Moses visited by his 
father, mentor, or the devil?
I hate to stir this issue up once again, especially without some better 
answers, but I'm rereading the books with an eye on Pike and Quetzal.
A couple of questions have come up during my reread:

Does Rose have a daughter? We know that she has a son, but what about 
1:69hc?
"At times Maytera Rose, kneeling before her daughter's image,..."

How did Silk kill the white headed one? He was knocked unconscious, 
possibly with a concussion, and then wakes up to find the bird dead.

And what's up with that scene with Urus and the Trivigaunti officer, 
where they rendezvous for a clandestine meeting? And how would Horn have 
known of it to write about it, and why?

May every god favor you.
Vance

---

From: Doug Eigsti <douge at nti.com>
Date: Wed, 09 Apr 1997 12:51:58 +0000

Vance, 

> "At times Maytera Rose, kneeling before her daughter's image,..."

	This is part of the Rose/Marble/Moly mystery. I have come to the
conclusion that Rose and Marble (et.al.) never were the "same person" but
have a lot of shared memories. For this reason Rose/Marble often considers
herself to have lived through the experiences she remembers. We know that
when a god possesses a person they leave some of their personality behind
after they "leave", (II, p118 hc). We also know that marble remembers more
after getting new parts from Rose, (IV, p118.-7 hc). Rose and Marble must
have been possessed by the same god. Perhaps, for Marble, even on the
Short Sun Whorl by the entity that gave birth to Echidna.  Thus she, Rose,
is found kneeling before her daughter's image. 
	For more on this shared memory dilemma see Philip K. Dick's story 
"We can remember it for you wholesale" or Larry Niven's novel WORLD OF 
PTAVVS. The latter has a character that thinks he is an alien after 
sharing it's memories, with hilarious results.

> known of it to write about it, and why?
	Back to Horn's artistic license. Could this be another example of 
a scene he made up just to fill in the gaps in his story?

=Talon=

---

From: Kieran Cleary <kcleary at tinet.ie>
Date: Wed, 09 Apr 1997 14:55:04 +0000

Hi Vance:

I have to say I agree with you re Pike/Quetzal: I don't find the 
previous explanations satisfactory, while not having a better one 
myself! Many people have referred to Quetzal as a shape-shifter, 
though the only shapes we see him assume are that of the serpent and 
old man. Sometimes it reads as if the serpent has donned the shell of 
a human body (in fact, I don't see any other way since I don't 
consider Q a Shape-shifter) which he can discard and resume at will. 
It's also in bad shape: Q has to continually touch it up with powder 
to make it appear alive.
On my first reading, I wildly thought that this body was originally 
Pike's and that somehow, a la Marble/Rose, some sort of Q/Pike 
convergence was happening. The timeline doesn't really bear this out: 
Q was Prolocutor for many years while Pike was alive. I presume, 
though, that 33 years before Silk arrived at Sun Street, that Q 
looked 33 years younger. Perhaps he needed to acquire an older body 
to avoid questions about his continued youthfulness (i.e. the kinds 
of questions that Loris, Lemur et al had to answer). Just a thought, 
though. Be ruthless!

As for your questions, roughly as far as I recollect:

1. I think that Rose sometimes imagined herself as Echidna, and the 
daughter referred to in that passage was actually Scylla.
2. The White Headed One was given to Blood by Musk. Blood clipped its 
wings and put it on the roof, where it "forgot that it couldn't fly" 
in the fight with Silk and fell to its death.
3. Not really sure: I think that Urus was once part of Spider's knot and 
told Saba where to find Auk & co. when they were abducted and taken 
to the airship.

alga:

FWIW I also agree completely that, at least at some level, the 
Outsider passages refer to Severian, who at this time is also the New 
Sun zooming towards Urth, who can manipulate Severian's Urthly body 
like a puppet from great distances. If we're seeking some kind of 
consistent explanation of how Severian is affecting affairs on the 
Long Sun, then I think that's probably it. The Increate in tBotNS 
isn't a personal god: there is a complicated hierarchy of beings who 
serve the Increate in the temporal universe. In no case does the 
Increate explicitly intervene in  human affairs, relying instead on 
the holy slaves to interact with humans. 

Lasrach

Lasrach
____________________________________________________________
Kieran Cleary
Senior Research Engineer
North West Labs
Finisklin Industrial Estate
Sligo
Republic of Ireland

Tel. +353 71 69441
Fax. +353 71 69451
email kcleary at nwlabs.com
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