# Pike/Quetzal, and other ?s *The Whorl list — 3 messages, 3 voices, 08 Apr 1997* > Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright > in each message remains with the person who wrote it. > Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original > archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than > retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact. --- ### Reusch *08 Apr 1997, 21:27* Hi everyone. I've been lurking awhile, sifting through the archives. You people take your Wolfe seriously! I've had a lot of fun reading your thoughts, ideas, speculations, arguments, jabs. One point that I've been having trouble swallowing, though, is the old Pike's ghost scenario. I don't buy either argument that's been posted here; that it was either Quetzal or a computer image. What would be the point of either? I think that there's more to this scene, some tie between Quetzal and Pike. I think that it was Quetzal flying out the window, and then Silk sees Pike. Wolfe is linking the one with the other. Why, I haven't figured out yet. Mantis, great job witht the Moses link. It's been a while since I've read Joseph Campbell, and longer still since I've read the story of Moses, but is there any similar event in Moses' story? Was Moses visited by his father, mentor, or the devil? I hate to stir this issue up once again, especially without some better answers, but I'm rereading the books with an eye on Pike and Quetzal. A couple of questions have come up during my reread: Does Rose have a daughter? We know that she has a son, but what about 1:69hc? "At times Maytera Rose, kneeling before her daughter's image,..." How did Silk kill the white headed one? He was knocked unconscious, possibly with a concussion, and then wakes up to find the bird dead. And what's up with that scene with Urus and the Trivigaunti officer, where they rendezvous for a clandestine meeting? And how would Horn have known of it to write about it, and why? May every god favor you. Vance --- ### Doug Eigsti *09 Apr 1997, 12:51 · follows Reusch* Vance, Welcome. I have a couple of thoughts on your questions: > Does Rose have a daughter? We know that she has a son, but what about > 1:69hc? > "At times Maytera Rose, kneeling before her daughter's image,..." This is part of the Rose/Marble/Moly mystery. I have come to the conclusion that Rose and Marble (et.al.) never were the "same person" but have a lot of shared memories. For this reason Rose/Marble often considers herself to have lived through the experiences she remembers. We know that when a god possesses a person they leave some of their personality behind after they "leave", (II, p118 hc). We also know that marble remembers more after getting new parts from Rose, (IV, p118.-7 hc). Rose and Marble must have been possessed by the same god. Perhaps, for Marble, even on the Short Sun Whorl by the entity that gave birth to Echidna. Thus she, Rose, is found kneeling before her daughter's image. For more on this shared memory dilemma see Philip K. Dick's story "We can remember it for you wholesale" or Larry Niven's novel WORLD OF PTAVVS. The latter has a character that thinks he is an alien after sharing it's memories, with hilarious results. > And what's up with that scene with Urus and the Trivigaunti officer, > where they rendezvous for a clandestine meeting? And how would Horn have > known of it to write about it, and why? Back to Horn's artistic license. Could this be another example of a scene he made up just to fill in the gaps in his story? =Talon= --- ### Kieran Cleary *09 Apr 1997, 14:55 · follows Doug Eigsti* Hi Vance: I have to say I agree with you re Pike/Quetzal: I don't find the previous explanations satisfactory, while not having a better one myself! Many people have referred to Quetzal as a shape-shifter, though the only shapes we see him assume are that of the serpent and old man. Sometimes it reads as if the serpent has donned the shell of a human body (in fact, I don't see any other way since I don't consider Q a Shape-shifter) which he can discard and resume at will. It's also in bad shape: Q has to continually touch it up with powder to make it appear alive. On my first reading, I wildly thought that this body was originally Pike's and that somehow, a la Marble/Rose, some sort of Q/Pike convergence was happening. The timeline doesn't really bear this out: Q was Prolocutor for many years while Pike was alive. I presume, though, that 33 years before Silk arrived at Sun Street, that Q looked 33 years younger. Perhaps he needed to acquire an older body to avoid questions about his continued youthfulness (i.e. the kinds of questions that Loris, Lemur et al had to answer). Just a thought, though. Be ruthless! As for your questions, roughly as far as I recollect: 1. I think that Rose sometimes imagined herself as Echidna, and the daughter referred to in that passage was actually Scylla. 2. The White Headed One was given to Blood by Musk. Blood clipped its wings and put it on the roof, where it "forgot that it couldn't fly" in the fight with Silk and fell to its death. 3. Not really sure: I think that Urus was once part of Spider's knot and told Saba where to find Auk & co. when they were abducted and taken to the airship. alga: FWIW I also agree completely that, at least at some level, the Outsider passages refer to Severian, who at this time is also the New Sun zooming towards Urth, who can manipulate Severian's Urthly body like a puppet from great distances. If we're seeking some kind of consistent explanation of how Severian is affecting affairs on the Long Sun, then I think that's probably it. The Increate in tBotNS isn't a personal god: there is a complicated hierarchy of beings who serve the Increate in the temporal universe. In no case does the Increate explicitly intervene in human affairs, relying instead on the holy slaves to interact with humans. Lasrach Lasrach ____________________________________________________________ Kieran Cleary Senior Research Engineer North West Labs Finisklin Industrial Estate Sligo Republic of Ireland Tel. +353 71 69441 Fax. +353 71 69451 email kcleary at nwlabs.com ___________________________________________________________ ---