mouse vis a vis rat pt 2

Alice Turner08 Apr 1997, 17:15original

But I can't resist one more reminder. Who do we KNOW was worshipped on Urth from the time of Typhoon on? Why, the Conciliator, that's who, though it's not formal worship. And who do we KNOW who coos? Thecla, that's who. And not for a minute do I think that Wolfe would create a character with a trademark coo (it's a family trait, her sister coos too), and then be so careless as to assign this coo to another character in a related book--even if, as some of you suggest, that character is the BVM. I grant that the Sevarian is not the Increate (neither is the Outsider), but by the end of the Urth series he is certainly as much of a god as JC is thought to be on this Earth--I think some of you want parallels to be too literal . Remember how the Brown Book twists things.... -alga-

Jim Jordan09 Apr 1997, 22:40original

↳ follows, by subject match Alice Turner

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At 05:15 PM 4/8/97 -0400, Alga wrote: But I can't resist one more reminder. Who do we KNOW was worshipped on Urth from the time of Typhoon on? Why, the Conciliator, that's who, though it's not formal worship.

Worship has degrees, esp. in Roman Catholicism. Gene is very clear that Severian is not a Christ figure, but a Christian figure. Is Severian really the one true and original Conciliator for Urth? Also, the Outsider worship is PRE-Typhon.

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And who do we KNOW who coos? Thecla, that's who. And not for a minute do I think that Wolfe would create a character with a trademark coo (it's a family trait, her sister coos too), and then be so careless as to assign this coo to another character in a related book--even if, as some of you suggest, that character is the BVM.

The Holy Spirit, as dove, coos. (Now, which ear heard the cooing, and does Severian's bird consistently ride the same shoulder? Hmmm.) Now, you may have a point here, though again the question comes whether we are dealing with identity or analogy. You may think I'm pressing theology onto Wolfe, but that was really what my interview with him was designed to find out. And the result is: It is really there. Two voices, one clear, the other cooing. One is the Second Person, the Word of God, who speaks; and the other is the Spirit. Both are aspects of the Uncreated Increate Pancreating Creator who is Outside the creation.

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I grant that the Sevarian is not the Increate (neither is the Outsider),

Whoa! On what basis? It seems to me that the Outsider is indeed the pancreating Increate.

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but by the end of the Urth series he is certainly as much of a god as JC is thought to be on this Earth--I think some of you want parallels to be too literal .

Nope. Remember the protestant missionaries from the 20th century (equivalent) in "Shadow." It was not Severian they worshipped. Also, you gotta bear in mind that for Gene, Jesus is not just thought to be God, He IS God incarnate. And that is something Severian is not. Now, if Zelazny had written these books, you'd have a point.... Given what a trickster Wolfe is, I don't want to press the parallels too literally, but at the same time, you gotta avoid going too far in the other direction either. Severian is to the Jesus of Urth what I or any other Christian is to the Jesus of Earth: an imperfect follower, following in His footsteps and doing the things He did -- but not being Him. Jesus tells us to pass out cups of cold water to the needy, and Severian does nothing more than that, though on a really big scale. I believe Nutrias, being aquatic, feed on algae.... Nutria

Derek Bell10 Apr 1997, 20:23original

↳ follows, by subject match Jim Jordan

In message <199704082116.OAA23830 at lists1.best.com>, Alice Turner writes:

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But I can't resist one more reminder. Who do we KNOW was worshipped on Urth from the time of Typhoon on? Why, the Conciliator, that's who, though it's not formal worship. And who do we KNOW who coos? Thecla, that's who. And not for a minute do I think that Wolfe would create a character with a trademark coo (it's a family trait, her sister coos too), and then be so careless as to assign this coo to another character in a related book--even if, as some of you suggest, that character is the BVM.

I agree entirely, alga. (I've forgotten what BVM is, though.) Wolfe is rarely, if ever, careless.

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I grant that the Sevarian is not the Increate (neither is the Outsider), but by the end of the Urth series he is certainly as much of a god as JC is thought to be on this Earth--I think some of you want parallels to be too literal . Remember how the Brown Book twists things....

There's a lot about the nature of writing in tBotNS and tBotLS - unreliable narrators, self-referential passages (e.g. Talos' play), several references to pencases in tBotLS (possible hints from Horn), Severian mentioning his manuscripts, the titles of the two series themselves, the Chrasmologic Writings - these contain at least extracts from Marcus Aurelius' work and the Bible... BTW, is there a link to Volume 4 of the archive? Volume 3 stops in mid-March. Tercel

Doug Eigsti10 Apr 1997, 10:33original

↳ follows, by subject match Derek Bell

Alga writes:

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But I can't resist one more reminder. Who do we KNOW was worshipped on Urth from the time of Typhoon on? Why, the Conciliator, that's who, though it's not formal worship. And who do we KNOW who coos? Thecla, that's who. And not for a minute do I think that Wolfe would create a character with a trademark coo (it's a family trait, her sister coos too), and then be so careless as to assign this coo to another character in a related book--even if, as some of you suggest, that character is the BVM. I grant that the Sevarian is not the Increate (neither is the Outsider), but by the end of the Urth series he is certainly as much of a god as JC is thought to be on this Earth--I think some of you want parallels to be too literal . Remember how the Brown Book twists things.... -alga-

Alga, You may have something with the cooing of Thecla. This has never registered through my readings of NEW SUN. Do you have the reference so that I can check it out? I still see an issue with the Outsider as THE Creator. My understanding is that the Increate is THE Creator, making the Outsider the Increate: (IV, p264.9) "...who shaped our forebears from the mud of the Short Sun Whorl." This citation, and Silk's progressive realization that the Outsider is the "God of gods", leads me to believe that no mere mortal could take on the role of the Outsider. The Conciliator may have been worshiped but was not truly divine. I am warming up to the idea of Severian making a cameo, especially if I can locate those "coo" references, mainly because it would be a great inside joke. A joke that I somehow missed. Does that make me an outsider? =Talon=