{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/whorl/176", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "whorl", "thread": { "id": 176, "subject": "mouse vis a vis rat pt 2", "messages": 4, "voices": 4, "first": "1997-04-08T17:15:05+00:00", "last": "1997-04-10T20:23:50+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Alice Turner", "address": "al at interport.net" }, "date": "1997-04-08T17:15:05+00:00", "subject": "(whorl) mouse vis a vis rat pt 2", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But I can't resist one more reminder. Who do we KNOW was worshipped on Urth\nfrom the time of Typhoon on? Why, the Conciliator, that's who, though it's\nnot formal worship. And who do we KNOW who coos? Thecla, that's who. And\nnot for a minute do I think that Wolfe would create a character with a\ntrademark coo (it's a family trait, her sister coos too), and then be so\ncareless as to assign this coo to another character in a related book--even\nif, as some of you suggest, that character is the BVM.\n\nI grant that the Sevarian is not the Increate (neither is the Outsider),\nbut by the end of the Urth series he is certainly as much of a god as JC is\nthought to be on this Earth--I think some of you want parallels to be too\nliteral . Remember how the Brown Book twists things....\n\n-alga- " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jim Jordan", "address": "jbjordan at gnt.net" }, "date": "1997-04-09T22:40:37+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) mouse vis a vis rat pt 2", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 05:15 PM 4/8/97 -0400, Alga wrote:\n\n\nBut I can't resist one more reminder. Who do we KNOW was worshipped on Urth\nfrom the time of Typhoon on? Why, the Conciliator, that's who, though it's\nnot formal worship." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\tWorship has degrees, esp. in Roman Catholicism. Gene is very clear that\nSeverian is not a Christ figure, but a Christian figure. Is Severian really\nthe one true and original Conciliator for Urth?\n\tAlso, the Outsider worship is PRE-Typhon." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And who do we KNOW who coos? Thecla, that's who. And\nnot for a minute do I think that Wolfe would create a character with a\ntrademark coo (it's a family trait, her sister coos too), and then be so\ncareless as to assign this coo to another character in a related book--even\nif, as some of you suggest, that character is the BVM." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\tThe Holy Spirit, as dove, coos. (Now, which ear heard the cooing, and does\nSeverian's bird consistently ride the same shoulder? Hmmm.)\n\tNow, you may have a point here, though again the question comes whether we\nare dealing with identity or analogy.\n\tYou may think I'm pressing theology onto Wolfe, but that was really what\nmy interview with him was designed to find out. And the result is: It is\nreally there. Two voices, one clear, the other cooing. One is the Second\nPerson, the Word of God, who speaks; and the other is the Spirit. Both are\naspects of the Uncreated Increate Pancreating Creator who is Outside the\ncreation." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I grant that the Sevarian is not the Increate (neither is the Outsider)," }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\tWhoa! On what basis? It seems to me that the Outsider is indeed the\npancreating Increate." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "but by the end of the Urth series he is certainly as much of a god as JC is\nthought to be on this Earth--I think some of you want parallels to be too\nliteral . " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\tNope. Remember the protestant missionaries from the 20th century\n(equivalent) in \"Shadow.\" It was not Severian they worshipped. Also, you\ngotta bear in mind that for Gene, Jesus is not just thought to be God, He\nIS God incarnate. And that is something Severian is not. Now, if Zelazny\nhad written these books, you'd have a point....\n\tGiven what a trickster Wolfe is, I don't want to press the parallels too\nliterally, but at the same time, you gotta avoid going too far in the other\ndirection either. Severian is to the Jesus of Urth what I or any other\nChristian is to the Jesus of Earth: an imperfect follower, following in His\nfootsteps and doing the things He did -- but not being Him. Jesus tells us\nto pass out cups of cold water to the needy, and Severian does nothing more\nthan that, though on a really big scale. \n\n\tI believe Nutrias, being aquatic, feed on algae....\n\nNutria" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Derek Bell", "address": "dbell at maths.tcd.ie" }, "date": "1997-04-10T20:23:50+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) mouse vis a vis rat pt 2", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In message <199704082116.OAA23830 at lists1.best.com>, Alice Turner writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But I can't resist one more reminder. Who do we KNOW was worshipped on Urth\nfrom the time of Typhoon on? Why, the Conciliator, that's who, though it's\nnot formal worship. And who do we KNOW who coos? Thecla, that's who. And\nnot for a minute do I think that Wolfe would create a character with a\ntrademark coo (it's a family trait, her sister coos too), and then be so\ncareless as to assign this coo to another character in a related book--even\nif, as some of you suggest, that character is the BVM." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\tI agree entirely, alga. (I've forgotten what BVM is, though.)\nWolfe is rarely, if ever, careless." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I grant that the Sevarian is not the Increate (neither is the Outsider),\nbut by the end of the Urth series he is certainly as much of a god as JC is\nthought to be on this Earth--I think some of you want parallels to be too\nliteral . Remember how the Brown Book twists things...." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\tThere's a lot about the nature of writing in tBotNS\nand tBotLS - unreliable narrators, self-referential passages\n(e.g. Talos' play), several references to pencases in tBotLS\n(possible hints from Horn), Severian mentioning his manuscripts, the\ntitles of the two series themselves, the Chrasmologic Writings - these\ncontain at least extracts from Marcus Aurelius' work and the Bible...\n\n\tBTW, is there a link to Volume 4 of the archive? Volume 3\nstops in mid-March.\n\n\tTercel" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Doug Eigsti", "address": "douge at nti.com" }, "date": "1997-04-10T10:33:54+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) mouse vis a vis rat pt 2", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Alga writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But I can't resist one more reminder. Who do we KNOW was worshipped on Urth\nfrom the time of Typhoon on? Why, the Conciliator, that's who, though it's\nnot formal worship. And who do we KNOW who coos? Thecla, that's who. And\nnot for a minute do I think that Wolfe would create a character with a\ntrademark coo (it's a family trait, her sister coos too), and then be so\ncareless as to assign this coo to another character in a related book--even\nif, as some of you suggest, that character is the BVM.\n\nI grant that the Sevarian is not the Increate (neither is the Outsider),\nbut by the end of the Urth series he is certainly as much of a god as JC is\nthought to be on this Earth--I think some of you want parallels to be too\nliteral . Remember how the Brown Book twists things....\n\n-alga- " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\tAlga,\n\n\tYou may have something with the cooing of Thecla. This has never \nregistered through my readings of NEW SUN. Do you have the reference so \nthat I can check it out?\n\tI still see an issue with the Outsider as THE Creator. My \nunderstanding is that the Increate is THE Creator, making the Outsider \nthe Increate:\n\n\t(IV, p264.9) \"...who shaped our forebears from the mud of the Short\n\tSun Whorl.\" \n\n\tThis citation, and Silk's progressive realization that the \nOutsider is the \"God of gods\", leads me to believe that no mere mortal \ncould take on the role of the Outsider. The Conciliator may have been \nworshiped but was not truly divine.\n\n\tI am warming up to the idea of Severian making a cameo, \nespecially if I can locate those \"coo\" references, mainly because it \nwould be a great inside joke. A joke that I somehow missed. Does that \nmake me an outsider?\n\n=Talon=" } ] } ] }