Subject: (whorl) mouse vis a vis rat pt 2

From: Alice Turner <al at interport.net>
Date: Tue, 08 Apr 1997 17:15:05 +0000

[Posted from WHORL, the mailing list for Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun]

But I can't resist one more reminder. Who do we KNOW was worshipped on Urth
from the time of Typhoon on? Why, the Conciliator, that's who, though it's
not formal worship. And who do we KNOW who coos? Thecla, that's who. And
not for a minute do I think that Wolfe would create a character with a
trademark coo (it's a family trait, her sister coos too), and then be so
careless as to assign this coo to another character in a related book--even
if, as some of you suggest, that character is the BVM.

I grant that the Sevarian is not the Increate (neither is the Outsider),
but by the end of the Urth series he is certainly as much of a god as JC is
thought to be on this Earth--I think some of you want parallels to be too
literal . Remember how the Brown Book twists things....

-alga-

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From: Jim Jordan <jbjordan at gnt.net>
Date: Wed, 09 Apr 1997 22:40:37 +0000

At 05:15 PM 4/8/97 -0400, Alga wrote:
>not formal worship.

	Worship has degrees, esp. in Roman Catholicism. Gene is very clear that
Severian is not a Christ figure, but a Christian figure. Is Severian really
the one true and original Conciliator for Urth?
	Also, the Outsider worship is PRE-Typhon.

>And who do we KNOW who coos? Thecla, that's who. And

	The Holy Spirit, as dove, coos. (Now, which ear heard the cooing, and does
Severian's bird consistently ride the same shoulder? Hmmm.)
	Now, you may have a point here, though again the question comes whether we
are dealing with identity or analogy.
	You may think I'm pressing theology onto Wolfe, but that was really what
my interview with him was designed to find out. And the result is: It is
really there. Two voices, one clear, the other cooing. One is the Second
Person, the Word of God, who speaks; and the other is the Spirit. Both are
aspects of the Uncreated Increate Pancreating Creator who is Outside the
creation.

>I grant that the Sevarian is not the Increate (neither is the Outsider),

	Whoa! On what basis? It seems to me that the Outsider is indeed the
pancreating Increate.

>literal . 

	Nope. Remember the protestant missionaries from the 20th century
(equivalent) in "Shadow." It was not Severian they worshipped. Also, you
gotta bear in mind that for Gene, Jesus is not just thought to be God, He
IS God incarnate. And that is something Severian is not. Now, if Zelazny
had written these books, you'd have a point....
	Given what a trickster Wolfe is, I don't want to press the parallels too
literally, but at the same time, you gotta avoid going too far in the other
direction either. Severian is to the Jesus of Urth what I or any other
Christian is to the Jesus of Earth: an imperfect follower, following in His
footsteps and doing the things He did -- but not being Him. Jesus tells us
to pass out cups of cold water to the needy, and Severian does nothing more
than that, though on a really big scale. 

	I believe Nutrias, being aquatic, feed on algae....

Nutria

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From: Derek Bell <dbell at maths.tcd.ie>
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 20:23:50 +0000

>if, as some of you suggest, that character is the BVM.

	I agree entirely, alga. (I've forgotten what BVM is, though.)
Wolfe is rarely, if ever, careless.

>literal . Remember how the Brown Book twists things....

	There's a lot about the nature of writing in tBotNS
and tBotLS - unreliable narrators, self-referential passages
(e.g. Talos' play), several references to pencases in tBotLS
(possible hints from Horn), Severian mentioning his manuscripts, the
titles of the two series themselves, the Chrasmologic Writings - these
contain at least extracts from Marcus Aurelius' work and the Bible...

	BTW, is there a link to Volume 4 of the archive? Volume 3
stops in mid-March.

	Tercel

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From: Doug Eigsti <douge at nti.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 10:33:54 +0000

> literal . Remember how the Brown Book twists things....

	Alga,

	You may have something with the cooing of Thecla. This has never 
registered through my readings of NEW SUN. Do you have the reference so 
that I can check it out?
	I still see an issue with the Outsider as THE Creator. My 
understanding is that the Increate is THE Creator, making the Outsider 
the Increate:

	(IV, p264.9) "...who shaped our forebears from the mud of the Short
	Sun Whorl." 

	This citation, and Silk's progressive realization that the 
Outsider is the "God of gods", leads me to believe that no mere mortal 
could take on the role of the Outsider. The Conciliator may have been 
worshiped but was not truly divine.

	I am warming up to the idea of Severian making a cameo, 
especially if I can locate those "coo" references, mainly because it 
would be a great inside joke. A joke that I somehow missed. Does that 
make me an outsider?

=Talon=