{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/whorl/19", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "whorl", "thread": { "id": 19, "subject": "blood and despair", "messages": 2, "voices": 2, "first": "1997-01-11T14:47:09+00:00", "last": "1997-01-11T21:35:02+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Peter Cash", "address": "cash at convex.convex.com" }, "date": "1997-01-11T14:47:09+00:00", "subject": "(whorl) blood and despair", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Patri10629 at aol.com (Patrick O'Leary)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "2. In the same scene why does Oreb cry out in apparent fear/anxiety at\nsomething disturbing that is happening \"off screen? I think he says something\nlike \"No! NO!\" Huh?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I thought they were fixing the hydraulics in Maytera Marble's hand, and\nthat this looked like \"cutting\" to Oreb. (He had a thing about\n\"cutting\"...)\n\nIn this connection, I thought it odd that while the talus factory can\nfix the hydraulics, the optical fibers that control Marble's hand can\nonly be repaired by a \"black mechanic\" like Incus. Who were these \"black\nmechanics\"? Where did they get their skills? What were they all about?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: CoxRathvon at aol.com" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "My answer is--yes, very much so, and I agree with Patrick that Silk's hour of\ndespair atop the airship derives in part from this perception of the largely\nfutile surge of history. It's typical, I think, for Wolfe's stories to take\nplace against a backdrop of war, espionage, and political chaos--all of it\nabsorbing and vital to its participants--which however is ultimately\npointless when compared to one's search for self or truth or God. Wolfe's\nvision seems to be that mankind will *always* be thrashing about in politics\nand war, and that innocent people will be swept up and killed in these\nendless, bloody tides. If anything, this inevitable social chaos makes the\nquest for a deeper meaning more precious--and more difficult. Poor Silk is\nthrown into the midst of a political storm at the very same time that he's\nshown a path of redemption. It must tear his heart to realize that so many\npeople will perish in the chaos without sharing his vision." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, I think that's very insightful. I can imagine Christ feeling like\nthis.\n\nI suppose that ultimately it does not matter whether Viron falls to\nTrivigaunte or not--the larger backdrop makes it all irrelevant." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But of course, Silk has some purely personal sorrows in that hour of despair\non the airship, and I'm still trying to understand those. One involves\nHyacinth and another involves Maytera Marble, as Patrick points out.\n Hyacinth, as has been suggested in recent postings here, is almost certain\nto have done some spying for Crane and Trivigaunte; evidently she and\nChenille have not fully divulged to Silk the extent of such activities. But\nalso, it's clear that Kypris used to visit Hyacinth (through the glass at\nBlood's villa), and is therefore apt to have possessed her and \"left a piece\"\nof the goddess with Hyacinth. Does that perhaps explain Hyacinth's ability\nto overcome a trooper? I'm still not sure and would welcome further\nsuggestions from fellow readers." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think that Kypris' gift would include a facility at hand-to-hand\ncombat. I have become convinced that Hyacinth was a Trivigaunte spy.\n(When I mentioned this to a friend who as also just read the Long Sun\nbooks, he said he thought it was so obvious that he hadn't even\nmentioned it to me!) \n\nHyacinth's covert activities would have gone far beyond simple\nintelligence-gathering; she may have been the chief Trivigaunte spy in\nViron--Crane may have been her subordinate! (Indeed, it's unlikely that\nthe feminist Trivigaunti would trust a man to head their spy network.)\nRemember Hyacinth's proclivity for bedding the rich and famous--the\nanonymous army officer, Oosik, Blood...and Silk. There is a strong\npossibility that her entire relationship with Silk was nothing but an\nadjunct to her covert activities. She has been exploiting him for\npolitical purposes all along, guiding him in a path advantageous to her\nmasters.\n\nThis ties in with Silk's despair at the political/military turmoil\n(which was abetted by Pas' geographical isolation of the Cities). It\nturns out that Hyacinth herself has been deceiving him on account of\nsuch machinations." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Patri10629", "address": "patri10629 at aol.com" }, "date": "1997-01-11T21:35:02+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) blood and despair", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well said, Henry Rathvon (regarding human futility versus divine plans) and\nPeter Cash, esp. re: Hyacinth's probable spying. The list of her bedmates\n(all high-ranking officials) is convincing enough for me. But the idea that\na Matriarchy wouldn't trust a man (Crane) to run the covert ops, sinks it.\nPoor Silk. Sad Good Silk.\n\nAnyone else get the feeling that there are fathoms of mystery yet unplumbed\nin these books? Every time I re read I'm stunned by how Wolfe can couch the\nmost startling revelations in a throwaway bit of dialogue. Examples escape me\nat the moment. Sorry.\n\nHow about Oreb? What a strange loveable bird! But his favorite dish is eyes:)\nPerhaps he, of all the characters, sees most clearly. Not sure what I mean.\nThe switch to his POV in CALDE OF THE LONG SUN, I think, is stunning.\n\nAnd, sorry, I won't expand on how Wolfe annoys me. I'm sure it's rooted in\nenvy:)\n\nSPOILER WARNING: Tho it's probably too late if you've been reading these\nposts for a while.\n\n\n\n\n\nWasn't that an amazing moment when suddenly in the middle of a tense\ndiplomatic discussion around dinner, the narrator reveals himself?\n\n\"Then I walked in.\"\n\nChrist, my jaw literally dropped.\n\nFor what it's worth: I review the Long Sun Books in the next issue of SF\nEYE--due out, I'm told, \"soon\". Watch for it. Hope I do these amazing books\njustice.\n\nAnd kudos to all who've joined this enlightening discussion. I hope Gene is\npeeking over our shoulders now. Though, he's probably smirking,\nthinking--\"Dopes. They've missed all the embedded Borges, Kipling, and\nChesterton!\" As I did:) \n\nLike I said: Annoying:)\n\nPatrick O'Leary\nAuthor of DOOR NUMBER THREE\nemail: Patri10629 at aol.com\nMy Homepage: http://users.aol.com/patri10629\n\n\n\n\nQuestions or problems to whorl-owner at lists.best.com" } ] } ] }