{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/whorl/196", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "whorl", "thread": { "id": 196, "subject": "Coo-coo-coo-roo", "messages": 2, "voices": 2, "first": "1997-04-11T22:54:46+00:00", "last": "1997-04-12T08:39:48+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Alice Turner", "address": "al at interport.net" }, "date": "1997-04-11T22:54:46+00:00", "subject": "(whorl) Coo-coo-coo-roo", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Er-um. I really hate to back off, especially when a Big Rat threatens, but\nI may have exaggerated that cooing. A rather hasty paging through couldn't\nfind Thecla cooing, though Thea certainly does (Shadow 13,14,98; Claw 268).\nDid I misremember? Possible, but I don't have time to really check.\n\nmantis:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "(You know, I'm becoming more convinced that you would really\nappreciate Peter Wright's essays in that \"Foundation No. 66\"--now I'm\ndown to wondering if you would have anything to argue against them\nbeyond simple quibbles!)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Is this available commercially? Through amazon? I'm just about to place\nanother order, and will look.\n\nNutria:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\tWorship has degrees, esp. in Roman Catholicism. Gene is very clear that\nSeverian is not a Christ figure, but a Christian figure. Is Severian\nreally\nthe one true and original Conciliator for Urth?\n\tAlso, the Outsider worship is PRE-Typhon." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, I think that Serverian is the OT&OCFU. Who sez Outsider worship is\npre-Typhon (though I am perfectly willing to admit that Outsider worship\nmerges very nicely with older worshipful figures including pre JC ones)?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\tThe Holy Spirit, as dove, coos. (Now, which ear heard the cooing, and\ndoes\nSeverian's bird consistently ride the same shoulder? Hmmm.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Oreb as Holy Spirit? Now that's a thigh-slapper." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I grant that the Sevarian is not the Increate (neither is the Outsider)," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\tWhoa! On what basis? It seems to me that the Outsider is indeed the\npancreating Increate." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's interesting. I never thought so. But then I think Severian is a god,\ninsofar as I understand gods, and I placed him as Wolfe's JC figure. I\nsimply can't see the Increate as a personal god." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\tNope. Remember the protestant missionaries from the 20th century\n(equivalent) in \"Shadow.\" It was not Severian they worshipped. Also, you\ngotta bear in mind that for Gene, Jesus is not just thought to be God, He\nIS God incarnate. And that is something Severian is not. Now, if Zelazny\nhad written these books, you'd have a point...." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No, of course the missionaries worship JC. And I'll accept that Wolfe is a\nChristian, on Earth. But on Urth, he has done the very neat trick of\ncreating his own JC equivalent...an especially neat trick for a practicing\nChristian (I speak as a heathen, as if you couldn't guess, but as a fairly\nwell-read and interested heathen)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\tI believe Nutrias, being aquatic, feed on algae...." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "First, they have to catch them.\n\nLasrach:\n(What is a \"lasrach?\" Once again, the OED fails me!)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "FWIW I also agree completely that, at least at some level, the \nOutsider passages refer to Severian, who at this time is also the New\nSun zooming towards Urth, who can manipulate Severian's Urthly body\nlike a puppet from great distances. If we're seeking some kind of\nconsistent explanation of how Severian is affecting affairs on the\nLong Sun, then I think that's probably it. The Increate in tBotNS\nisn't a personal god: there is a complicated hierarchy of beings who\nserve the Increate in the temporal universe. In no case does the\nIncreate explicitly intervene in human affairs, relying instead on\nthe holy slaves to interact with humans. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'd have to sort the above out a bit, but viscerally and a little vaguely I\ngo along with it.\n\nvizcacha:\nThe aquastor theory is mantis's. I'm of the Quetzal camp!\n\nTalon:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\tThis citation, and Silk's progressive realization that the \nOutsider is the \"God of gods\", leads me to believe that no mere mortal \ncould take on the role of the Outsider. The Conciliator may have been \nworshiped but was not truly divine." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't see how you can say that Severian is a mere mortal. Everything\nabout him is progressively supernatural, he performs miraculous healings,\nis tested as a god, saves the Urth itself, walks the corridors of time,\nbreathes water, convenes with angels, has his soul linked to a star--hey,\nwhat more do you want?\n\nTusk: (funny derivation )\nExcellent questions, and *not* hashed to death! Welcome, and I hope someone\ncan answer them. I can't! But the BVM is a not entirely polite way of\nreferring to the Blessed Virgin Mary.\n\nmantis, I can't believe you didn't ask him about Pike's ghost!!!!!!\n\n-alga- " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Doug Eigsti", "address": "douge at nti.com" }, "date": "1997-04-12T08:39:48+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) Coo-coo-coo-roo", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Talon:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "\tThis citation, and Silk's progressive realization that the \nOutsider is the \"God of gods\", leads me to believe that no mere mortal \ncould take on the role of the Outsider. The Conciliator may have been \nworshiped but was not truly divine." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't see how you can say that Severian is a mere mortal. Everything\nabout him is progressively supernatural, he performs miraculous healings,\nis tested as a god, saves the Urth itself, walks the corridors of time,\nbreathes water, convenes with angels, has his soul linked to a star--hey,\nwhat more do you want?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\tI see Severian as a mere mortal that has put on immortality, and \nother supernatural characteristics, through the workings of the \nIncreate/Pancreator, not through any innate qualities he may possess. His \nelevated station is the result of divine intervention. He is the \nIncreate's chosen instrument, just as Silk is the Outsider's. (I had to \nwork in some Whorl content for Ranjit).\n\n\n=Talon=" } ] } ] }