Subject: (whorl) Coo-coo-coo-roo

From: Alice Turner <al at interport.net>
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 22:54:46 +0000

[Posted from WHORL, the mailing list for Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun]

Er-um. I really hate to back off, especially when a Big Rat threatens, but
I may have exaggerated that cooing. A rather hasty paging through couldn't
find Thecla cooing, though Thea certainly does (Shadow 13,14,98; Claw 268).
Did I misremember? Possible, but I don't have time to really check.

mantis:
> (You know, I'm becoming more convinced that you would really
> appreciate Peter Wright's essays in that "Foundation No. 66"--now I'm
> down to wondering if you would have anything to argue against them
> beyond simple quibbles!)

Is this available commercially? Through amazon? I'm just about to place
another order, and will look.

Nutria:
> 	Worship has degrees, esp. in Roman Catholicism. Gene is very clear that
> Severian is not a Christ figure, but a Christian figure. Is Severian
really
> the one true and original Conciliator for Urth?
> 	Also, the Outsider worship is PRE-Typhon.

Yes, I think that Serverian is the OT&OCFU. Who sez Outsider worship is
pre-Typhon (though I am perfectly willing to admit that Outsider worship
merges very nicely with older worshipful figures including pre JC ones)?

> 	The Holy Spirit, as dove, coos. (Now, which ear heard the cooing, and
does
> Severian's bird consistently ride the same shoulder? Hmmm.)

Oreb as Holy Spirit? Now that's a thigh-slapper.

> >I grant that the Sevarian is not the Increate (neither is the Outsider),
> 
> 	Whoa! On what basis? It seems to me that the Outsider is indeed the
> pancreating Increate.

That's interesting. I never thought so. But then I think Severian is a god,
insofar as I understand gods, and I placed him as Wolfe's JC figure. I
simply can't see the Increate as a personal god.

> 	Nope. Remember the protestant missionaries from the 20th century
> (equivalent) in "Shadow." It was not Severian they worshipped. Also, you
> gotta bear in mind that for Gene, Jesus is not just thought to be God, He
> IS God incarnate. And that is something Severian is not. Now, if Zelazny
> had written these books, you'd have a point....

No, of course the missionaries worship JC. And I'll accept that Wolfe is a
Christian, on Earth. But on Urth, he has done the very neat trick of
creating his own JC equivalent...an especially neat trick for a practicing
Christian (I speak as a heathen, as if you couldn't guess, but as a fairly
well-read and interested heathen).

> 	I believe Nutrias, being aquatic, feed on algae....

First, they have to catch them.

Lasrach:
(What is a "lasrach?" Once again, the OED fails me!)

> FWIW I also agree completely that, at least at some level, the 
> Outsider passages refer to Severian, who at this time is also the New
> Sun zooming towards Urth, who can manipulate Severian's Urthly body
> like a puppet from great distances. If we're seeking some kind of
> consistent explanation of how Severian is affecting affairs on the
> Long Sun, then I think that's probably it. The Increate in tBotNS
> isn't a personal god: there is a complicated hierarchy of beings who
> serve the Increate in the temporal universe. In no case does the
> Increate explicitly intervene in  human affairs, relying instead on
> the holy slaves to interact with humans. 

I'd have to sort the above out a bit, but viscerally and a little vaguely I
go along with it.

vizcacha:
The aquastor theory is mantis's. I'm of the Quetzal camp!

Talon:
> 	This citation, and Silk's progressive realization that the 
> Outsider is the "God of gods", leads me to believe that no mere mortal 
> could take on the role of the Outsider. The Conciliator may have been 
> worshiped but was not truly divine.

I don't see how you can say that Severian is a mere mortal. Everything
about him is progressively supernatural, he performs miraculous healings,
is tested as a god, saves the Urth itself, walks the corridors of time,
breathes water, convenes with angels, has his soul linked to a star--hey,
what more do you want?

Tusk: (funny derivation <g>)
Excellent questions, and *not* hashed to death! Welcome, and I hope someone
can answer them. I can't! But the BVM is a not entirely polite way of
referring to the Blessed Virgin Mary.

mantis, I can't believe you didn't ask him about Pike's ghost!!!!!!

-alga-

---

From: Doug Eigsti <douge at nti.com>
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 08:39:48 +0000

> breathes water, convenes with angels, has his soul linked to a star--hey,
	I see Severian as a mere mortal that has put on immortality, and 
other supernatural characteristics, through the workings of the 
Increate/Pancreator, not through any innate qualities he may possess. His 
elevated station is the result of divine intervention. He is the 
Increate's chosen instrument, just as Silk is the Outsider's. (I had to 
work in some Whorl content for Ranjit).

=Talon=