{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/whorl/220", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "whorl", "thread": { "id": 220, "subject": "Nessus, geography", "messages": 2, "voices": 2, "first": "1997-03-18T09:06:44+00:00", "last": "1997-03-18T14:25:50+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Alice Turner", "address": "al at interport.net" }, "date": "1997-03-18T09:06:44+00:00", "subject": "(whorl) Nessus, geography", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Concerning Nessus:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\tI took Nessus as (Bue)Nos Aires in the same way that Cordwainer Smith's\nMeeya Meefla is Miami Fla. But, that was me, not Wolfe. Smith is not a\nmajor influence on Wolfe, despite appearances. (It seems that they both\nthink along the same lines, and that creates the appearance of some\ndependance.)\n\tWhat I have never done is try to \"solve the crossword puzzle\" (to use\nMantis's felicitous analogy) by looking for evidence of the direction of\nflow of the river, whether Urth flipped more than once, etc. If the river\nflows west instead of east, and if we are in South America, then perhaps\nNessus is Santiago.\n\tNow, one other point: Pas has loaded the cargo of Starcrosser with\nlocals.\nThese locals sip mate and are generally (in Viron) a South American\nculture. This would indicate that Typhon's domain is in the Argentine\narea,\nnot in an Egyptian area. AHA, but the Trivigauntes speak a kind of\nArabic,\nso maybe they and not the Vironese were the local population around\nTyphon's throne. \n\tSo, okay. I give up. Gene has defeated me. Where's my .357 Magnum....\n\tIf Urth flipped only once, then the Alexandria suggestion makes more\nsense; especially since Alexandria is noted for its library. In that\ncase,\nthe Ultanian nod to Borges would just be a nod, and not a Clew!\n\tSo then: What do you see as evidence for Alexandria?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, I've developed a kind of geography of Urth, or at least of Severian's\nmajor journey, an abbreviated version of which is in mantis's second\naddendum to Lexicon Urthus (if you email him, he might send you one in\ngratitude for that long and interesting Wolfe interview). I'm supposed to\nbe writing it up at length, or at least at more length---why don't I finish\ndoing that and then post it here, so as not to have to defend challenges\npiecemeal? The reason I asked about Wolfe (and am relieved at your answer)\nis that had he endorsed you, I would have had to abandon it.\n\nMate is sorta weak as a clue.\n\nBut the quick-and-dirty clues to Alexandria are (1) Holy Katharine (St.\nCatherine is the patron of Alexandria); (2) the library; (3) the cluster of\ntowers in the old launching pad (Matachin, Bear, Witches etc.) which seem\nto stand in for the ancient Pharos. Admittedly, the third point is a bit\nfar-fetched, but not so much when you put in context (I promise to do\ncontext soon---taxes are in the way).\n\nI simply can't accept your etymology for Nessus. For me it refers directly\nto the centaur with the poisoned blood, and belongs along with Gyoll and\nother references to what mantis (and I too) refers to as the Gnostic view\nof Urth, that in its tainted state it is a kind of Hell that must be\nsaved--by U-No-Who. But this is, of course, because I have a Euro-centric\nview of Urth, at least \"our\" part." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "JBJordan (Hmmm. What shall I be? How about Nutria!)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "How about Naugahyde? Heh!!\n\nFound both mantis and Nutria really good and interesting on the parallels\nbetween Cordwainer Smith and Wolfe. Which is not only to say I agree with\nboth, but that I admired their parlance.\n\n-alga-\n\n\n\n\nQuestions or problems to whorl-owner at lists.best.com" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jim Jordan", "address": "jbjordan at gnt.net" }, "date": "1997-03-18T14:25:50+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) Nessus, geography", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "De Nessum atque Algam:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I simply can't accept your etymology for Nessus. For me it refers directly\nto the centaur with the poisoned blood, and belongs along with Gyoll and\nother references to what mantis (and I too) refers to as the Gnostic view\nof Urth, that in its tainted state it is a kind of Hell that must be\nsaved--by U-No-Who. But this is, of course, because I have a Euro-centric\nview of Urth, at least \"our\" part." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\tWell, certainly the culture of the Autarky is Byzantine, and that would\nsupport you. I noticed all kinds of allusions to gnosticism also, and\noriginally assumed Wolfe was creating a universe consistent with modern\nphysics and gnosticism -- a universe with no true transcendent, and thus\nwhere all sacraments are ultimately mechanical, time is cyclical, and the\nuniverse is closed like a Kline bottle. But that is not really the case.\nWhich raises the question of whether the taurobolium and other gnostic\nallusions are mere decoration or are designed as the foil against which the\nNew Sun must act. I thought the Qabbalism in volume 5 (Yesodh, Beriach)\nsupported a gnostic reading, but Gene told me it was just a device, so I'm\nleft in a quandary. Someday I'll have to find out what you guys mean by\nyour Gnostic approach.\n\nNutria, the Big Rat\n\n\nQuestions or problems to whorl-owner at lists.best.com" } ] } ] }