{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/whorl/254", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "whorl", "thread": { "id": 254, "subject": "Moses(es) of the Whorl", "messages": 2, "voices": 2, "first": "1997-04-04T04:15:00+00:00", "last": "1997-04-04T14:46:33+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "m.driussi", "address": "m.driussi at genie.com" }, "date": "1997-04-04T04:15:00+00:00", "subject": "(whorl) Moses(es) of the Whorl", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Joseph Campbell, in THE MASKS OF GOD: OCCIDENTAL MYTHOLOGY, quoting\nFreud's MOSES AND MONOTHEISM:\n\n\"We cannot escape the impression that this Moses of Kadesh\nand Midian, to whom tradition could even ascribe the erection of a\nbrazen serpent as a healing god, is quite a different person from\nthe august Egyptian we have deduced [mantis note: a refugee from\nthe court of heretic pharoah Ikhnaton], who disclosed to his people\na religion in which all magic and sorcery were moststrictly abhorred.\nOur Egyptian Moses differs perhaps no lessfrom the Midian Moses than the\nuniversal god Aton [mantis note: focal point of Ikhnaton's heretical\nmonotheism] differed from thedemon Yahweh [mantis note: Arabian volcano\ngod] on his divine mountain.\"\n\nTwo Moseses, one brazen snake on a stick. But let's face it, that snake\nhas two aspects, too: healing/beneficial and destructive/frightful. Oops,\nand two gods, or names of God: Yahweh (focus of the \"J Text\") and Elohim\n(focus of the \"E Text\").\n\nCampbell breaks down the Moses story into the following elements:\n\n \"1. a cruel, unnamed, fairy-tale pharoah, persecuting a people . . .\n(Tyrant-Ogre motif),\n\n 2. has a daughter, also unnamed, who finds a baby in a basket on the\nwaters of the Nile . . . (modified Virgin Birth motif, with inverted Infant\nExposure: from humble to noble household);\n\n 3. a Midianite priest of Kadesh, who is to become the hero's father-in-law\n(named Reuel in J Text, Jethro in E);\n\n 4. has seven daughters (magical 7: seven celestial spheres,colors of the\nrainbow, etc.),\n\n 5. who are met at the well by a desert fugitive from Egypt whohas just\nkilled an Egyptian;\n\n 6. he marries one and becomes the shepherd of his father-in-law. . . ;\n\n 7. the voice of Yahweh in the burning bush commits to this shepherd\nthe cosmic task of rescuing his people from the clutches of the Tyrant Ogre;\nafter which there follows\n\n 8. his magical contest, assisted by his suddenly present brother\nAaron (Twin Hero theme), against the priests and magicians of Egypt\n(shaman contest), culminating in\n\n 9. the Plagues of Egypt . . . and\n\n 10. the Exodus (Magic Flight motif, Passage through Water, Dissolution of\nUnderworld Power at Threshold, Boon of Spoil from Underworld, etc.).\"\n\nThese points match up to THE BOOK OF THE LONG SUN in a fairly\nstraight forward manner.\n\n1. We will take pharoah in his strictly governmental aspect as\nbeing the Ayuntamiento or Calde Tussah, rather than get messy\nwith pharoah's divine status (which links into the Nine).\n\n2. Nameless daughter of Viron, right. Well that's clear--almost\npaint by number. \n\n3. Hero's father-in-law, interesting angle on the head clerk of\nthe Juzgado.\n\n4. Seven daughters. Well, at this point, the original story seems to\nimply rather special powers for Jethreuel . . . no matter, since our\nclerk has only one daughter (to the best of our knowledge)--but she's\nHyacinth and very special. (Maybe two-in-one, but not seven-in-one.)\n\n5. Ah, a fork in the road: Moses the adopted nobleman versus\nMoses the outlaw. Silk gets to be the adopted nobleman (with the\nhigh-to-low social status in its usual mode) and Auk, he kicked a man to\ndeath, once. But I also want to interject that Father Brown has his\nthief buddy, too (what was his name--Flammbeau?). Silk meets Hyacinth\nat a well of sorts (at Ermine's) . . . does Auk ever meet Chenille at\na well?\n\n6. \"Shepherd of his father-in-law\"--now see, that implies that\nReuejethro is somehow kinda sorta standing in for something bigger,\nranging from \"the People\" on up to God Himself. But for our purposes,\nwe'll just let it be \"Silk for Calde.\"\n\n7. Burning bush into burning fig tree. Check. This element\nalso covers Silk's first enlightenment and probably a few other\nscenes scattered throughout the series. Note that the burningbush\ntells of how when time to go comes along, just asking the\nEgyptian women for jewelry will give the Hebrews the goods(forgive me\nbut I can't quite catch the meaning of this); whereas Comely Kypris\ntells her Sun Street Irregulars to rob the Palatine, and they do, and\nguess what--cards are needed for repairing the landers! (Now =that=\nI can grasp!)\n\n8. Hmmm. Snake and stick tricks.\n\n9. The Plagues of Egypt is what they're gonna git on the Whorl if'n\nthey don't land sumbuddy rite kwik!\n\n10. Magic flight would be when the floater takes off.\n\nWell, enough fooling around. I think that Silk is one Moses, Auk\nis another (and/or he is Aaron), and Quetzal is a third (since he dies\nbefore getting to the promised land), but Q is also the snake\non the stick (and of the stick), healing and frightening at the same\ntime, since that brazen serpent god (healing totem/magical staff) also\ndied in Exodus, making way for the transcendent god.\n\n=mantis=\n\nQuestions or problems to whorl-owner at lists.best.com" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Derek Bell", "address": "dbell at maths.tcd.ie" }, "date": "1997-04-04T14:46:33+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) Moses(es) of the Whorl", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In message <199704040643.WAA08675 at lists1.best.com>, m.driussi at genie.com writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "[an excellent summary of mythic/religious connections with the whorl]>\nWell, enough fooling around. I think that Silk is one Moses," }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\tI agree - the Moses who led the Israelites saw the promised\nland, but didn't reach it. Silk sees the (new) short sun and does not\nland with Horn's lander. (The difference is, we don't know Silk's\nfate.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Auk is another (and/or he is Aaron), and Quetzal is a third (since he dies\nbefore getting to the promised land), but Q is also the snake\non the stick (and of the stick), healing and frightening at the same\ntime, since that brazen serpent god (healing totem/magical staff) also\ndied in Exodus, making way for the transcendent god." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\tI'm still a little puzzled by Quetzal's comment about the\nstory of the apple and the temptation: \"perhaps he wanted them to get\ninto his tree\" (I think). Is that a comment that the snakes' motives\nmight have been misconstued. (Likewise Q's motives if he were to be\nfound out to be an inhumus.)\n\n\tI'm also intruiged by Chenille - she seems to have some\nunusual capabilities. For instance, when the knife was thrown by\nKypris and it hit the spot that it had been in before, it struck me\nthat Chenille's own reflexes/muscular control must have been *very*\nprecise. She is Silk's sister, but I seemed to have missed most of the\nclues about her parentage. Could she have cold one programming? Could\none or *both* of her parents have been cold ones? (Ditto Silk?)\n\n\tAbout the description of Oreb's flight where he was going to\nget revenge on Tick - I had the idea of Horn interviewing Oreb and\ntrying to translate his speech! Unlikely, I know, but it amused me\ngreatly!\n\n\tTercel\n\nQuestions or problems to whorl-owner at lists.best.com" } ] } ] }