{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/whorl/276", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "whorl", "thread": { "id": 276, "subject": "beating a dead horse", "messages": 3, "voices": 3, "first": "1997-05-09T14:08:39+00:00", "last": "1997-05-09T17:58:00+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Joel Priddy", "address": "jpriddy at saturn.vcu.edu" }, "date": "1997-05-09T14:08:39+00:00", "subject": "(whorl) beating a dead horse", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thanks for the great and thorough answers in response to my\nPas/Typhon questions. Now that the connection between the two\nseries has been nailed down, I have a slightly stickier question:\nwhy? What is served by the two series being connected? \n Thematically: There are some similar themes of course, but does\none flesh out or serve the other in any way that requires them to\nbe connected? New Sun and Long Sun do may be variations on a\ntheme, but so is a lot of Wolfe's work.\nIs there any narrative advantage to the connection? Developed\nhistories/universes are one of the fun toys of science fiction (I\nstill recall reading _I,_Robot_ as a kid and being wowed at\nfollowing a fictional history over a span of centuries), but New\nSun and Long Sun are so removed from each other in so many\ndetails of history, tech, culture, and scope that I'm not sure\nthe connection satisfies any shared-history sweet-tooth.\nFollowing with a series taking place on Blue and Green would be a\nsatisfying connection to Long Sun, but New Sun/ Long Sun strikes\nme as saying _The_Last_Temptation_Of_Christ_ takes place in the\nsame \"universe\" as _The_Catcher_In_The_Rye_. Sure, that could be\nthe case, but it doesn't add anything to either story to be\npresented with that of information.\nI don't see any reason that requires a New Sun/ Long Sun\nconnection except as a promotional thing, letting Long Sun ride\non New Sun's coattails for a while, but I assume that if Wolfe\nbothered to make a connection, there must be a more relevant\npurpose behind it...\nOf course, I'm making the error of second geussing Wolfe. Who\nknows how many books he has planned in the same universe, or how\nmuch both Long Sun and New Sun will inform them. I think I'm\nprobably just still mad at the publisher for putting that blurb\non the cover of Nightside. It set me up to expect something\ndifferent that what I got, and as several other people have\nexpressed here, it took me awhile to switch gears so that I could\nenjoy Long Sun in and of itself. Had I just been reading happily\nalong what I thought was an unrelated Wolfe book and stumbled\nacross a reference to Briah, it would have been an exciting\nrevelation. It all comes down to expectation, I geuss.\n\nJOEL" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Scott Dalrymple", "address": "scottd at wycol.com" }, "date": "1997-05-09T14:13:59+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) beating a dead horse", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 10:08 AM 5/9/97 EDT, you wrote:\n\nThanks for the great and thorough answers in response to my\nPas/Typhon questions. Now that the connection between the two\nseries has been nailed down, I have a slightly stickier question:\nwhy? What is served by the two series being connected? " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "For me, the fact that Typhon launched the Whorl gave me a greater\nappreciation of the immensity of both his vision and his supreme arrogance\n(especially given the fact that he fashions Pas after himself). The image\nof the Whorl seems to me an extension of the huge statue of Typhon: a\ntestament to his awesomely-scaled monomaniacal streak. Is this link\nbetween the series necessary? Does it offer any particularly important\ninsights into the _Long Sun_ series? Probably not. But it cost Wolfe\nnothing to link the two, and it does make me read the Typhon section of the\n_Urth_ series differently now. I think it's a delicious bonus to have the\ntwo linked.\n\nOn a somewhat practical level, one might contend that the very strong\nsimilarities between the religion in _Long Sun_ and Catholicism argues for\na somewhat shorter time span than we generally imagine between today's time\nand Typhon's; remnants of Catholicism certainly still exist even in\nSeverian's present, but seem more removed than what Silk practices." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "m.driussi", "address": "m.driussi at genie.com" }, "date": "1997-05-09T17:58:00+00:00", "subject": "(whorl) beating a dead horse", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Reply: Item #7420072 from WHORL at LISTS.BEST.COM@INET00#\n\nJoel,\n\nRe: your notes on the mechanics of augury (\"ars augurium\"?), you've\nopened a can of worms--good stuff. That is, I agree with your\npoints. The conclusion would seem to be that prepping an animal (and\ngetting it to the right? augur?) takes too long; that the point of\ninformation transfer is actually in the interpretation of the animal\nguts--just the right moment for a mind-control pink-light laser-beam\nto the brain, if such heavy handed manipulation is required.\n\n\"The glass is half-em--\" \"--full; this means that rain will\nfall only in the north . . . \"\n\nBut yeah, the Nine are probably really gods in the Greco-Roman sense\nof it. And that's one of the main points, right? Putting Father\nBrown and the 19th century into a Greco-Roman polytheistic mode.\n\nRe: why a new Briatic series? Now this is just my opinion and you\ndon't have to agree with it, but I think it is pretty interesting to\ntake one of the irredeemable devils of New Sun and at least partially\nredeem him in Long Sun. As if Tolkien wrote a sequel to THE LORD OF\nTHE RINGS where Sauron the Great took a turn playing do-gooder\n\"Sauron the Long Suffering\"; then through elvish time warping had the\nsequel play along simultaneous to the first work.\n\nThat is to say: it is clear that being literally dead and then\nliterally resurrected did nothing to cure Monarch Typhon of his evil\ndreams; it is as if he had only gone to sleep then woken up. But the\nprocess of a waking dream (virtual reality/artificial intelligence)\nof being a good god seems to have had some effect. In the end, Pas\nseems to be at peace.\n\n(Of course, in a different light this redemption might just be the same\nas the convoluted torture of a Titan in the netherworld; i.e., the\n\"gooder\" he tries the more he suffers because his \"true\" nature is Evil.)\n\nWe might just as well ask, \"Why all the sequels to `The Island of\nDoctor Death and Other Stories'?\" But the answer to that is more\nclear-cut: each story looks at a different angle of the same sort of\npuzzle. For one example, in Long Sun Love looms large; reminding us how\nutterly absent Love is (or seems to be) from New Sun.\n\nvizcacha,\n\nGreat summation on Mint! Have a cup of coffee (or two) and keep going!\n\n=mantis=" } ] } ] }