{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/whorl/349", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "whorl", "thread": { "id": 349, "subject": "Wolfe's Answer re Torturers' Guild", "messages": 6, "voices": 3, "first": "1997-06-16T09:51:31+00:00", "last": "1997-06-18T13:56:00+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Wesley Parsons (7065)", "address": "wrp at adorno.com" }, "date": "1997-06-16T09:51:31+00:00", "subject": "(whorl) Wolfe's Answer re Torturers' Guild", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "My question and Wolfe's answer were:\n\n<<14. \"Is there a member (current, former, or future) of the Order of\nSeekers for Truth and Penitence on the Whorl?\" I'm going to\ninterpret this question in the broadest possible sense, since that\nseems to be what Parsons wants. Yes, there is. It is Silk.>>\n\nIt's been suggested that Wolfe is slyly pointing out that Silk is indeed a\n\"seeker for truth and penitence,\" and Wolfe's answer has no more\nmeaning than that. I would respectfully disagree. it. Wolfe rarely\nemphasizes key information in his writing, but he is always, within the\nlogic of the narrative, accurate. Believe what he says. The Order of\nSeekers for Truth and Penitence (capitalized as a proper noun) is a\nspecific organization. Silk is a member. Either Silk is (or has been/will be)\na torturer. Severian has to be the best candidate.\n\nWes" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jim Jordan", "address": "jbjordan at gnt.net" }, "date": "1997-06-16T18:05:40+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) Wolfe's Answer re Torturers' Guild", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 09:51 AM 6/16/97 -0400, you wrote:\nMy question and Wolfe's answer were:\n\n<<14. \"Is there a member (current, former, or future) of the Order of\nSeekers for Truth and Penitence on the Whorl?\" I'm going to\ninterpret this question in the broadest possible sense, since that\nseems to be what Parsons wants. Yes, there is. It is Silk.>>\n\nIt's been suggested that Wolfe is slyly pointing out that Silk is indeed a\n\"seeker for truth and penitence,\" and Wolfe's answer has no more\nmeaning than that. I would respectfully disagree. it. Wolfe rarely\nemphasizes key information in his writing, but he is always, within the\nlogic of the narrative, accurate. Believe what he says. The Order of\nSeekers for Truth and Penitence (capitalized as a proper noun) is a\nspecific organization. Silk is a member. Either Silk is (or has\nbeen/will be)\na torturer. Severian has to be the best candidate.\n\nWes" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\tNope.\n\tI'll bet you're completely wrong.\n\tThe Order for Seekers of Truth and Penitence is (tada!) the Christian\nChurch, or the Catholic Church. \n\tSilk is a member of it in the proper sense.\n\tSeverian starts as a member of a perverse antichrist copy of it.\n\tThus, \"in the broadest sense,\" both are members of it.\n\tDon't be too surprised at this. Remember that in the bible, the opposite\nof the Bride is the Whore. The anti-church of the antichrist clones\n(manmade men) in The Fifth Head of Cerberus is a whorehouse. The Autarch\nalso runs a whorehouse. \n\tAll of which means to me: I need to reread the Severian Quintet for clues\nabout this matter.\n\tHmmm. The towers. Consider. The towers at the center of a city, with a\ngraveyard nearby, are usually the Cathedral. Here we have Witches, Animal\nTorturers (Bear Tower), and Human Torturers. Boy! An anti-cathedral or\nwhat?! But as Wolfe has said, Severian is trying to grow out and away from\nhis horrible beginnings. \n\tHey, these towers are spaceships, pointed toward heaven, that once\ntravelled in the heavens. A VERY interesting symbol for the church! But one\nthat recurs in the form of THE SHIP of The Angel of Justice (Tsaddki-El).\n(How often is a spaceship a church in SF?)\n\t\"How marvelous it would be to send this old Matachin Tower hurtling among\nthe stars! And yet there was something sinister about it, as about all\nthings perverted from a noble purpose to a shameful one.\" Urth of NS, hc, 261.\n\tFor me, this is opening up a lot of new and interesting possibilities.\nWhat do you experts (Mantis, et al.) think?\n\nNutria" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Wesley Parsons (7065)", "address": "wrp at adorno.com" }, "date": "1997-06-17T08:10:28+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) Wolfe's Answer re Torturers' Guild -Reply", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "<<14. \"Is there a member (current, former, or future) of the Order of\nSeekers for Truth and Penitence on the Whorl?\" I'm going to\ninterpret this question in the broadest possible sense, since that\nseems to be what Parsons wants. Yes, there is. It is Silk.>>\n\nNutria writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The Order for Seekers of Truth and Penitence is (tada!) the Christian" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Church, or the Catholic Church. Silk is a member of it in the proper sense.\nSeverian starts as a member of a perverse antichrist copy of it.\nThus, \"in the broadest sense,\" both are members of it.>>\n\nNutria,\n\nThanks for you comment, but I don't follow your logic. Membership in a\ngroup usually disqualifies one from membership the group's \"opposite.\" If\nyou're NRA, you're unlikely to have signed up for Citizens Against\nHandguns. Same for Republicans/Democrats. Or citizenship in different\ncountries (you lose your citizenship when you swear oath to another.) \nGranted that \"opposite\" groups share the same subject matter, for\nexample, handguns, or politics, or religion. When you interpret \"in the\nbroadest sense\" so _broadly_ , it tends to lose any meaning. Wolfe\ntypically does not speak this way.\n\n<>\n\nVery interesting analysis. Isn't Silk's worship of pagan gods just as \nanti-christian as anything Severian did in the Matachin Tower? Neither of\nthem starts out worshiping the Judaeo-Christian God, although both are\narguably enlightened by Him later.\n\nDifferent question: Why would Wolfe say, \"Knowing Typhon as I do . . .\" \n(Question 3). Typhon is not that sufficiently characterized, as Typhon in\nNS, or as Pas in LS, to merit such familiarity. Could it be that Typhon is a\nprominent character in Short Sun, and Wolfe has been inside his head\nthese many months as he has written SS? And if Typhon is back, in the\nflesh, whose flesh has he got?\n\nWes" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Straight", "address": "straight at email.unc.edu" }, "date": "1997-06-17T09:47:40+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) Wolfe's Answer re Torturers' Guild", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, 16 Jun 1997, Wesley Parsons wrote:\n<<14. \"Is there a member (current, former, or future) of the Order of\nSeekers for Truth and Penitence on the Whorl?\" I'm going to\ninterpret this question in the broadest possible sense, since that\nseems to be what Parsons wants. Yes, there is. It is Silk.>>\n\nIt's been suggested that Wolfe is slyly pointing out that Silk is indeed a\n\"seeker for truth and penitence,\" and Wolfe's answer has no more\nmeaning than that. I would respectfully disagree. it. Wolfe rarely\nemphasizes key information in his writing, but he is always, within the\nlogic of the narrative, accurate. Believe what he says. The Order of\nSeekers for Truth and Penitence (capitalized as a proper noun) is a\nspecific organization. Silk is a member. Either Silk is (or has been/will be)\na torturer. Severian has to be the best candidate." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Or maybe...\n\n\"All men are torturers.\" - Severian\n\n-Rostrum" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Wesley Parsons (7065)", "address": "wrp at adorno.com" }, "date": "1997-06-17T13:52:05+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) Wolfe's Answer re Torturers' Guild -Reply", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Silk is a member [of the guild]. Either Silk is (or has been/will be)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " a torturer. Severian has to be the best candidate.<<<" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Or maybe..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"All men are torturers.\" - Severian\n\n-Rostrum<<\n\nWell said. But taking Severian's quote literally . . . half the Whorl\nare torturers. Wolfe identified Silk in particular (and not Blood, or Pike, or\nHorn, etc) as a member of the guild.\n\nWes" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jim Jordan", "address": "jbjordan at gnt.net" }, "date": "1997-06-18T13:56:00+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) Wolfe's Answer re Torturers' Guild -Reply", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 08:10 AM 6/17/97 -0400, you wrote:\n\n[Posted from WHORL, the mailing list for Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun]\n\n<<14. \"Is there a member (current, former, or future) of the Order of\nSeekers for Truth and Penitence on the Whorl?\" I'm going to\ninterpret this question in the broadest possible sense, since that\nseems to be what Parsons wants. Yes, there is. It is Silk.>>\n\nNutria writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "The Order for Seekers of Truth and Penitence is (tada!) the Christian\nChurch, or the Catholic Church. Silk is a member of it in the proper sense." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Severian starts as a member of a perverse antichrist copy of it.\nThus, \"in the broadest sense,\" both are members of it.>>\n\nNutria,\n\nThanks for you comment, but I don't follow your logic. Membership in a\ngroup usually disqualifies one from membership the group's \"opposite.\" If\nyou're NRA, you're unlikely to have signed up for Citizens Against\nHandguns. Same for Republicans/Democrats. Or citizenship in different\ncountries (you lose your citizenship when you swear oath to another.) \nGranted that \"opposite\" groups share the same subject matter, for\nexample, handguns, or politics, or religion. When you interpret \"in the\nbroadest sense\" so _broadly_ , it tends to lose any meaning. Wolfe\ntypically does not speak this way." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\tWell, I sure won't burn at the stake for my thinking here! But in\nChristian theology, both Church and Antichurch are the same place. Roman\nCatholic theologians will say that just as a good Pope is the Vicar of\nChrist, so a bad Pope is an antichrist. Another way of putting it is that\nthe shadow anti-church exists alongside the true church. This is definitely\ntaught in the Bible.\n\tNow, how much of this is in Wolfe's mind? I don't know. But \"Seekers of\nTruth and Penitence\" is a perfectly good descriptive name for the Church.\nAnd, Severian's order is just like a monastic order in certain ways.\nConsidering that both parish churches (Silk) and orders (Severian) exist\nwithin the Church, and that the Church can be more or less faithful, mixed\nwith idolatry (Silk), even reversing her role (Severian) -- then \"in the\nbroadest sense\" both are in the same institution.\n\tWhat interests me now is to see if there are any more hints as to a\nconnection between the Towers and a Cathedral. As you know, the early\nchapters of Shadow are loaded with sacramental imagery. When I have the\ntime, I'd like to explore this a bit more -- unless someone else does so\nand posts it.\n\nNutricious Nutria" } ] } ] }