Subject: (whorl) Wolfe's Answer re Torturers' Guild

From: Wesley Parsons (7065) <wrp at adorno.com>
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 09:51:31 +0000

[Posted from WHORL, the mailing list for Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun]

My question and Wolfe's answer were:

<<14. "Is there a member (current, former, or future) of the Order of
Seekers for Truth and Penitence on the Whorl?"  I'm going to
interpret this question in the broadest possible sense, since that
seems to be what Parsons wants.  Yes, there is.  It is Silk.>>

It's been suggested that Wolfe is slyly pointing out that Silk is indeed a
"seeker for truth and penitence," and Wolfe's answer has no more
meaning than that.  I would respectfully disagree. it.  Wolfe rarely
emphasizes key information in his writing, but he is always, within the
logic of the narrative, accurate.  Believe what he says.  The Order of
Seekers for Truth and Penitence (capitalized as a proper noun) is a
specific organization.  Silk is a member.  Either Silk is (or has been/will be)
a torturer.  Severian has to be the best candidate.

Wes

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From: Jim Jordan <jbjordan at gnt.net>
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 18:05:40 +0000

>a torturer.  Severian has to be the best candidate.

	Nope.
	I'll bet you're completely wrong.
	The Order for Seekers of Truth and Penitence is (tada!) the Christian
Church, or the Catholic Church. 
	Silk is a member of it in the proper sense.
	Severian starts as a member of a perverse antichrist copy of it.
	Thus, "in the broadest sense," both are members of it.
	Don't be too surprised at this. Remember that in the bible, the opposite
of the Bride is the Whore. The anti-church of the antichrist clones
(manmade men) in The Fifth Head of Cerberus is a whorehouse. The Autarch
also runs a whorehouse. 
	All of which means to me: I need to reread the Severian Quintet for clues
about this matter.
	Hmmm. The towers. Consider. The towers at the center of a city, with a
graveyard nearby, are usually the Cathedral. Here we have Witches, Animal
Torturers (Bear Tower), and Human Torturers. Boy! An anti-cathedral or
what?! But as Wolfe has said, Severian is trying to grow out and away from
his horrible beginnings. 
	Hey, these towers are spaceships, pointed toward heaven, that once
travelled in the heavens. A VERY interesting symbol for the church! But one
that recurs in the form of THE SHIP of The Angel of Justice (Tsaddki-El).
(How often is a spaceship a church in SF?)
	"How marvelous it would be to send this old Matachin Tower hurtling among
the stars! And yet there was something sinister about it, as about all
things perverted from a noble purpose to a shameful one." Urth of NS, hc, 261.
	For me, this is opening up a lot of new and interesting possibilities.
What do you experts (Mantis, et al.) think?

Nutria

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From: Wesley Parsons (7065) <wrp at adorno.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 08:10:28 +0000

>>The Order for Seekers of Truth and Penitence is (tada!) the Christian
Church, or the Catholic Church. Silk is a member of it in the proper sense.
Severian starts as a member of a perverse antichrist copy of it.
Thus, "in the broadest sense," both are members of it.>>

Nutria,

Thanks for you comment, but I don't follow your logic.  Membership in a
group usually disqualifies one from membership the group's "opposite."  If
you're NRA, you're unlikely to have signed up for Citizens Against
Handguns.  Same for Republicans/Democrats.  Or citizenship in different
countries (you lose your citizenship when you swear oath to another.) 
Granted that "opposite" groups share the same subject matter, for
example, handguns, or politics, or religion.  When you interpret "in the
broadest sense" so _broadly_ <g>, it tends to lose any meaning.  Wolfe
typically does not speak this way.

<<Hmmm. The towers. Consider. The towers at the center of a city, with
a graveyard nearby, are usually the Cathedral. Here we have Witches,
Animal Torturers (Bear Tower), and Human Torturers. Boy! An
anti-cathedral or what?! But as Wolfe has said, Severian is trying to grow
out and away from his horrible beginnings. >>

Very interesting analysis. Isn't Silk's worship of pagan gods just as 
anti-christian as anything Severian did in the Matachin Tower?  Neither of
them starts out worshiping the Judaeo-Christian God, although both are
arguably enlightened by Him later.

Different question:  Why would Wolfe say, "Knowing Typhon as I do . . ." 
(Question 3).  Typhon is not that sufficiently characterized, as Typhon in
NS, or as Pas in LS, to merit such familiarity.  Could it be that Typhon is a
prominent character in Short Sun, and Wolfe has been inside his head
these many months as he has written SS?  And if Typhon is back, in the
flesh, whose flesh has he got?

Wes

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From: Michael Straight <straight at email.unc.edu>
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 09:47:40 +0000

> a torturer.  Severian has to be the best candidate.

Or maybe...

"All men are torturers." - Severian

-Rostrum

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From: Wesley Parsons (7065) <wrp at adorno.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 13:52:05 +0000

>>> Silk is a member [of the guild].  Either Silk is (or has been/will be)
 a torturer.  Severian has to be the best candidate.<<<

-Rostrum<<

Well said.  But taking Severian's quote literally . . . half the Whorl
are torturers.  Wolfe identified Silk in particular (and not Blood, or Pike, or
Horn, etc) as a member of the guild.

Wes

---

From: Jim Jordan <jbjordan at gnt.net>
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 13:56:00 +0000

>typically does not speak this way.

	Well, I sure won't burn at the stake for my thinking here! But in
Christian theology, both Church and Antichurch are the same place. Roman
Catholic theologians will say that just as a good Pope is the Vicar of
Christ, so a bad Pope is an antichrist. Another way of putting it is that
the shadow anti-church exists alongside the true church. This is definitely
taught in the Bible.
	Now, how much of this is in Wolfe's mind? I don't know. But "Seekers of
Truth and Penitence" is a perfectly good descriptive name for the Church.
And, Severian's order is just like a monastic order in certain ways.
Considering that both parish churches (Silk) and orders (Severian) exist
within the Church, and that the Church can be more or less faithful, mixed
with idolatry (Silk), even reversing her role (Severian) -- then "in the
broadest sense" both are in the same institution.
	What interests me now is to see if there are any more hints as to a
connection between the Towers and a Cathedral. As you know, the early
chapters of Shadow are loaded with sacramental imagery. When I have the
time, I'd like to explore this a bit more -- unless someone else does so
and posts it.

Nutricious Nutria