{
  "export": {
    "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/whorl/363",
    "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it.  Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.",
    "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'"
  },
  "archive": "whorl",
  "thread": {
    "id": 363,
    "subject": "Severian's Christianity",
    "messages": 2,
    "voices": 2,
    "first": "1997-06-23T10:29:17+00:00",
    "last": "1997-06-23T13:50:27+00:00"
  },
  "messages": [
    {
      "message_id": "<whorl-v0006-0383@digest.urth.net>",
      "from": {
        "name": "Peter Cash",
        "address": "cash at rsn.hp.com"
      },
      "date": "1997-06-23T10:29:17+00:00",
      "subject": "(whorl) Severian's Christianity",
      "in_reply_to": null,
      "reply_link": null,
      "blocks": [
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 1,
          "text": "Jim Jordan <jbjordan at gnt.net> (Nutria) wrote:\n       I don't want to get into an Alga-Nutria war, but once again I need to\nbring in Gene's own statement, to me, that Severian is not a Christ figure\nbut a Christian figure. That's from the horse's (pardon, wolf's) mouth. "
        },
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "With respect, I flat-out don't understand how it can be so. A Christian\nis, by definition, a follower of Jesus Christ. (This is the minimum\ncriterion, you can pile on as much theological baggage as you wish.)\nChrist is unknown in Severian's universe, so Severian cannot follow him.\nTherefore, Severian is not a Christian.\n\nThere is, perhaps, some ambiguity in what Wolfe told you. Perhaps he\nmeant that though Severian is in no way meant to _be_ Christ or someone\nlike Christ (this would make the New Sun books heretical, afteer all),\nhe is trying to live a Christ-like life. You don't have to be a\nChristian to do this--you don't even have to know who Christ is. But if\nyou are doing it, then you may be said to have a \"Christian characer\". \n\nLike Scripture, an author's words may require exegesis...\n\nRock"
        }
      ]
    },
    {
      "message_id": "<whorl-v0006-0384@digest.urth.net>",
      "from": {
        "name": "Michael Straight",
        "address": "straight at email.unc.edu"
      },
      "date": "1997-06-23T13:50:27+00:00",
      "subject": "Re: (whorl) Severian's Christianity",
      "in_reply_to": "<whorl-v0006-0383@digest.urth.net>",
      "reply_link": "subject",
      "blocks": [
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 1,
          "text": "On Mon, 23 Jun 1997, Peter Cash wrote:\nJim Jordan <jbjordan at gnt.net> (Nutria) wrote:"
        },
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 2,
          "text": "       I don't want to get into an Alga-Nutria war, but once again I need to\nbring in Gene's own statement, to me, that Severian is not a Christ figure\nbut a Christian figure. That's from the horse's (pardon, wolf's) mouth. "
        },
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 1,
          "text": "With respect, I flat-out don't understand how it can be so. A Christian\nis, by definition, a follower of Jesus Christ. (This is the minimum\ncriterion, you can pile on as much theological baggage as you wish.)\nChrist is unknown in Severian's universe, so Severian cannot follow him.\nTherefore, Severian is not a Christian."
        },
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "Perhaps Wolfe is thinking of something like this:  If a character can be\nsaid to be a \"Christ figure\" by playing a role in the story analogous to\nthe role Christ plays in the Christian story, then a character can be a\n\"Christian figure\" by playing a role in the story analogous to the role a\nChristian plays in the Christian story.  \n\nThe most literal definition of the word 'Christian' is 'little Christ', so\nWolfe may be saying that Severian is a 'lesser replica' of Christ rather\nthan a 'conscious believer and follower of Christ.'\n\nOthers have pointed out that Severian seems to fill the \"Christ figure\" \ndefinition in several ways (working miracles, saving the world), but the\nthings that most often cause a character to be compared to Christ are\nsacrificial death or suffering for others and some form of death, burial,\nand resurrection.  Using those two criteria, I'd say Silk (ObWhorl!) fits\nthe bill for \"Christ figure\" more than Severian, and neither one fits as\nwell as, say, Tom Joad in _The Grapes of Wrath_ (trying to dredge up a\n\"Christ figure\" from high school English classes and probably getting the\nname wrong) or Tolkein's Aragorn.\n\nWolfe may also be thinking that, to be a \"Christ figure\" in the Urth\nmultiverse, one would have to literally be the Increate (aka the Outsider) \nIncarnate.  Maybe, as a Christian, Wolfe dislikes the idea of any\ncharacter but Jesus being called a \"Christ figure\". \n\n-Rostrum\n\nMoreObWhorl: Interesting how stories about the Outsider found their way\ninto the religion of Viron which Scylla had created as a parody. "
        }
      ]
    }
  ]
}