Subject: (whorl) Canticon

From: m.driussi <m.driussi at genie.com>
Date: Tue, 01 Jul 1997 00:44:00 +0000

[Posted from WHORL, the mailing list for Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun]

Reply:  Item #0471995 from WHORL at LISTS.BEST.COM@INET01#

Nutria,

Re: Cant, as a matter of fact, Talon compiled a list of cant terms
used in THE BOOK OF THE LONG SUN and I'm still working my way through
it using the OED, which so far has nearly all of them.  But I'm
always happy to take up an offer for help, so here's a few I haven't
been able to find in the OED:

Abram
beggar's root
hornbuss ["buss" most likely = "kiss"]
ice [pre-1969, USA]
iron (you're for ~)
jump (full of ~; he's ~ for religion)
kate ["lockpick"]
larger ["more importantly"]
lay [OED has ten pages devoted to "lay"; in Vironese cant it is used
in at least five ways, four of which I think I've found]
  --breakin' ~.
lily
nanny nipper

Thanks in advance!

=mantis=

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From: David Langford <ansible at cix.compulink.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 01 Jul 1997 12:39:00 +0000

In-Reply-To: <199707010049.RAA29891 at lists1.best.com>

Mantis wrote:

> Talon compiled a list of cant terms

Here's some stuff from Eric Partridge's =A Dictionary of Historical 
Slang= (abridged 1972), with addenda from =1811 Dictionary of the Vulgar 
Tongue: A Dictionary of Buckish Slang, University Wit, and Pickpocket 
Eloquence= or [1811] for short ... the latter was reprinted and 
extensively remaindered in the 1970s and 80s.
 
> Abram
A malingerer: C.19-20 nautical; ob. 2, As adj., c.: mad, C.16-17, C.17-18 
... // abram, v. To feign sickness: ?ca 1840-90 ... // Abra(ha)m-cove or 
-man. A pseudo-madman seeking alms; a genuine lunatic allowed on certain 
days to leave Bethlehem Hospital ... ca 1550-1700. 2. Also, in late 
C.18-19, a mendicant pretending to be an old naval rating cast on the 
streets. // [1811] gives "naked" as primary meaning -- also allowed by 
Partridge -- and agrees on Abram Men, pretended mad men.

> iron (you're for ~)
[1811] Money in general. To polish the king's iron with one's eyebrows; 
to look out of grated or prison windows ... Iron doublet; a prison.

> kate ["lockpick"]
A master or skeleton key: c. of late C.17-mid-19. cf JENNY; JIMMY: esp. 
BETTY. 2. Hence, a picklock: C18-mid-19. 3. (Also katy, Katy.) A wanton: 
(mainly Scots) coll: C.16-early 19. // [1811] agrees: A picklock (cant).

> larger ["more importantly"]
large, adj. gen. used as adv. Excessively: (low) coll: from ca 1850. 
Thus, dress large, i.e. showily; go large, i.e. noisily; play large, i.e. 
for high stakes; i.e. boastfully. cf. FINE AND LARGE.

> nanny nipper
nanny. A whore: late C.17-C-19: coll. Ex Nanny, the female name. Mostly 
in combination: see, e.g., NANNY-HOUSE. // nipper. A thief, esp. a 
cut-purse or a pickpocket: c.: ca. 1580-1830. // nipper, v. To catch; to 
arrest: ca. 1820-1850. // [1811] confirms: Nanny House. A brothel. // 
Nip. A cheat. Bung nipper; a cutpurse.

By the way, no one on this learned list will have missed the upfront joke 
that Tick the catachrest speaks in catachresis ... but is there an echo 
there, too, of another communicative pet in James H. Schmitz's well-loved 
sf story "Novice" (incorporated into =The Universe Against Her=, 1964): a 
"crest cat" called Tick-Tock?

Dave

David Langford
ansible at cix.co.uk

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From: m.driussi <m.driussi at genie.com>
Date: Tue, 01 Jul 1997 14:01:00 +0000

Reply:  Item #6198742 from WHORL at LISTS.BEST.COM@INET01#

David Langford,

Hello there and a hearty welcome aboard!

Thank you for the cant terms--I'll put up another wanted list after
I've exhausted the OED (ha! OED is never exhausted: mantis loses
patience and eyesight).

Interesting tip re: Schmitz's "Novice."  I'm not (yet) familiar with
the story.  Re: Tick talk, vizcacha made a listing (it should be in
the archives) of Tick's words and phrases just so that we could all
agree on something. <g>

=mantis=

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From: Derek Bell <dbell at maths.tcd.ie>
Date: Tue, 01 Jul 1997 18:55:40 +0000

Strong language ahead!

	One cant term that's intruiged me is "shaggy". Apart from
meaning matted, in Ireland it's slang that's means something akin to
"fuck". I'm not sure how common this meaning is outside Ireland or if
Wolfe intended it in this manner - it's certainly an appropriate
meaning for the places it's used.

	Tercel

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From: m.driussi <m.driussi at genie.com>
Date: Tue, 01 Jul 1997 20:02:00 +0000

Reply:  Item #6323607 from WHORL at LISTS.BEST.COM@INET01#

Tercel,

Re: "shaggy," that's it on the nose, in coarse slang according to
OED.  Verb and workhorse-of-all-modifiers.  FWIW&IMHO Wolfe is using
it in this sense.

=mantis=

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From: Jim Jordan <jbjordan at gnt.net>
Date: Tue, 01 Jul 1997 17:34:25 +0000

At 12:44 AM 7/1/97 GMT, you wrote:

>it using the OED, which so far has nearly all of them.

	Good. My memory has not completely gone. (At 47, you never know...). I
knew I remembered a post on this, but could not find it.
	So, the good old OED has them. I could have guessed that, but at 47....

  But I'm
>Abram - mad; naked. As I dimly recall, the first is the one that fits.

>beggar's root - "rooting" is stealing. Rooting implies that several men
are going out on robbery bent.

>hornbuss ["buss" most likely = "kiss"] - buss may mean "steal." Horn is
the nose, in the dictionary. I thought it might mean to kiss the penis when
I first read it. It might mean to blow one's nose. I cannot recall the
context.

>ice [pre-1969, USA] - noun: diamonds; verb: imprison

>iron (you're for ~) - iron can be money or courage; but an iron house is a
prison. My guess is that Wolfe is using iron as prison, but I don't recall
the context.

>jump (full of ~; he's ~ for religion) A jump is an act of theft in which
the thief takes advantage of an open door or window for a quickie. Thus, it
seems to be used in the lupine underworld for "energy, energetic."

>kate ["lockpick"] - a pick-lock or skeleton key.

>larger ["more importantly"] - no entry.

>  --breakin' ~.   Breaking is burgling, from "breaking in". A lay is a
place where a theft can be committed.

>lily - a lily is a credulous person, a born sucker. I took it in Wolfe to
mean "believable."

>nanny nipper - a nanny is a brothel.  A nipper is a cutpurse or
pickpocket; to nip or to nipper is to arrest. No listing for the two
together, so you'll have to find it elsewhere or make a guess from context.
>=mantis=

Yer welcuhm. Ifn you have more, lemme know, and that's lily.

Nutricious