{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/whorl/409", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "whorl", "thread": { "id": 409, "subject": "Voided Cross", "messages": 4, "voices": 2, "first": "1997-07-25T10:44:04+00:00", "last": "1997-07-29T09:44:53+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Straight", "address": "straight at email.unc.edu" }, "date": "1997-07-25T10:44:04+00:00", "subject": "(whorl) Voided Cross", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Freom Wolfe's answers to our questions:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "18. \"Describe . . . a voided cross and a gammadion.\" A gammadion is\nany figure composed of gamma-shaped pieces. The most common\ngammadions are the swastika and the voided cross. (The swastika is\nancient, by the way, and is found in both East Indian and American\nIndian art.) To make a voided cross, arrange four gammas, not\ntouching, so that the points point toward a common center." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What are the \"points\" of a gamma? Is this what he's describing? It's the\nbest I could think of from that description (monospaced font required!).\nIf you need them to be \"not touching\" to make the voided cross, how are\nthey linked together?\n\n O \n O X\n OO XXXX\n\n ZZZZ QQ\n Z Q\n Q\n-Rostrum" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Doug Eigsti", "address": "douge at nti.com" }, "date": "1997-07-28T17:09:37+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) Voided Cross", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From Wolfe's answers to our questions:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "18. \"Describe . . . a voided cross and a gammadion.\" A gammadion is\nany figure composed of gamma-shaped pieces. The most common\ngammadions are the swastika and the voided cross. (The swastika is\nancient, by the way, and is found in both East Indian and American\nIndian art.) To make a voided cross, arrange four gammas, not\ntouching, so that the points point toward a common center." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What are the \"points\" of a gamma? Is this what he's describing? It's the\nbest I could think of from that description (monospaced font required!).\nIf you need them to be \"not touching\" to make the voided cross, how are\nthey linked together?\n\n O \n O X\n OO XXXX\n\n ZZZZ QQ\n Z Q\n Q\n-Rostrum" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Rostrom,\n\n\tYes, I think your diagram accurately illustrates what he was\ndescribing. Your point on linking is a valid one, although there are few\nof us who think it matters. The physical object worn by chapter members in\nLONG SUN is comprised of four gamma shaped objects that are useful as\nscrewdrivers. These are somehow linked to form the Void Cross. To me it\nseems that any linking device intruding into the \"void\" area would either\nfill the void or alter the \"gamma\".\n\tI dredged out an ancient post form the archives describing my \nfavorite shape for the Void Cross:\n\n XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXOOOOOOOOOO\n XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXOOOOOOOOOO\n XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXOOOOOOOOOO\n XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXOOOOOOOOOO\n OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO XXXXXXXXXXOOOOOOOOOO\n OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO XXXXXXXXXXOOOOOOOOOO\n OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO XXXXXXXXXXOOOOOOOOOO\n OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO XXXXXXXXXXOOOOOOOOOO\n OOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOO\n OOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOO\n OOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOO\n OOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOO\n OOOOOOOOOOXXXXXXXXXX OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO\n OOOOOOOOOOXXXXXXXXXX OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO\n OOOOOOOOOOXXXXXXXXXX OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO\n OOOOOOOOOOXXXXXXXXXX OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO\n OOOOOOOOOOXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX\n OOOOOOOOOOXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX\n OOOOOOOOOOXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX\n OOOOOOOOOOXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX\n \n\tThis is composed solely of four true gammas with no linking \nbridges. The void in the center is a plus sign shaped cross. To me this \nbetter satisfies the requirements of Pas's Void Cross than does the one \ndescribed by Gene Wolfe in his response to the train question. Note: that \nGene Wolfe was not asked to describe Pas's void cross but only a \"voided \ncross and a gammadion\". His reply stated the encyclopedia definitions for \nboth, and not necessarily the void cross worn by Silk, Quetzal, and Remora.\n\tDo we take Gene Wolfe speaking ex cathedra on this, or any other\nsubject, over the evidence found in the text. I find it stifling to think\nthat an impression garnered by a reader from the text can be called wrong.\nIf a reader's impression is as well supported in the text as an\nalternative view, who's to say which is correct? If they do not arrive at\nthe identical conclusion that the author had intended perhaps the author\ndid not express himself clearly enough. Fiction is an artform. An painter\nmust be judged by what he has put up on the canvas not by what he says to\nthe art lovers looking on in the gallery. An actor's performance can only\nbe judged by what the audience sees on the screen, not by his motivation\nor preparation. A writer of fiction can be appreciated only by the words\non the page. Gene Wolfe is one of my favorite artists. The pictures he\npaints in my head are among the most beautiful of any writer. They \nprobably do not look like those of any other reader.\n\tI noticed that after the answer train came in, the Pike's Ghost\ndialog was terminated. The aquastor theory was sounding good to me, but\nGene Wolfe stated that machines were not involved. End of discussion? \nDon't let the answer train railroad us into seeing pictures that aren't \nthere. \n\n=Talon=" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Straight", "address": "straight at email.unc.edu" }, "date": "1997-07-29T09:44:53+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) Voided Cross", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, 28 Jul 1997, Doug Eigsti wrote:\n\tI dredged out an ancient post form the archives describing my \nfavorite shape for the Void Cross:\n\n XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXOOOOOOOOOO\n XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXOOOOOOOOOO\n XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXOOOOOOOOOO\n XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXOOOOOOOOOO\n OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO XXXXXXXXXXOOOOOOOOOO\n OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO XXXXXXXXXXOOOOOOOOOO\n OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO XXXXXXXXXXOOOOOOOOOO\n OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO XXXXXXXXXXOOOOOOOOOO\n OOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOO\n OOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOO\n OOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOO\n OOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOO\n OOOOOOOOOOXXXXXXXXXX OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO\n OOOOOOOOOOXXXXXXXXXX OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO\n OOOOOOOOOOXXXXXXXXXX OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO\n OOOOOOOOOOXXXXXXXXXX OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO\n OOOOOOOOOOXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX\n OOOOOOOOOOXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX\n OOOOOOOOOOXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX\n OOOOOOOOOOXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\tDo we take Gene Wolfe speaking ex cathedra on this, or any other\nsubject, over the evidence found in the text. I find it stifling to think\nthat an impression garnered by a reader from the text can be called wrong." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If this shape isn't the one Wolfe had in mind, it ought to be :-), I was\njust trying to puzzle out his answer.\n\nMaybe he didn't have a specific shape in mind, but rather wanted to invoke\nboth the voided cross and the swastika, even if they are contradictory.\n\n-Rostrum" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Doug Eigsti", "address": "douge at nti.com" }, "date": "1997-07-29T09:35:32+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) Voided Cross", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Rostrum writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If this shape isn't the one Wolfe had in mind, it ought to be :-), I was\njust trying to puzzle out his answer.\n\nMaybe he didn't have a specific shape in mind, but rather wanted to invoke\nboth the voided cross and the swastika, even if they are contradictory." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\tI would say you are onto something. My concept of Wolfe is that \nhe likes to create scenarios where several, possibly contradictory, \nresults are possible. The classic example is SEVEN AMERICAN NIGHTS; Which \negg, if any, contained the hallucinogen? This kind of mind game is what \nmakes Wolfe so appealing to me. To pin down his text to mean any specific \nthing is to limit our enjoyment. An open ended problem stays in the mind \nlonger while we continue to ponder a solution. If my mind reaches closure \non a topic I tend to put it aside, whereas an unsolved mystery stays in \nactive memory to be called up when triggered by other related thoughts, \nto be relived time and again.\n\n=Talon=" } ] } ] }