{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/whorl/423", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "whorl", "thread": { "id": 423, "subject": "Digest whorl.v007.n018", "messages": 5, "voices": 4, "first": "1997-09-03T22:29:58+00:00", "last": "1997-09-08T12:04:49+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Alice Turner", "address": "al at interport.net" }, "date": "1997-09-03T22:29:58+00:00", "subject": "(whorl) Re: Digest whorl.v007.n018", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Wombat," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "First, re: Seven American Nights and the egg: I believe that I have read\na\ndescription of Wolfe answering the question about which egg contained the\nhallucinogen, though I do not remember the specific answer. The\ndescription\nof Wolfe's answer indicate that he seemed somewhat saddened by the fact\nthat people felt they had to ask him; I sometimes suspect that Wolfe is\nupset by the degree to which we the readers attribute to him both\ninfalibility and infinite cleverness. Generally, there are answers to any\nquestion we might have, and we just have to ask the text correctly." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm a little confused by this. Why should he be saddened? He writes puzzle\nstories; we, the readers who like them (not a majority of the reading\npublic) puzzle them out and he should love the effort we put in. As an\nauthor and a professional editor (I am also a professional editor and I\nhave some idea of what this entails), he was and is certainly knowledgeable\nabout the author's responsibility in how stories succeed in getting through\nto readers. If he seemed saddened at how we +failed+ (especially of a group\nlike this), it seems a bit arrogant to me; it means that he was unclear or\ntoo cryptic or that his editor was too distracted to straighten things out.\n\n\nIf, on the other hand, he was saddened by the general intellectual caliber\nof the crowd at a convention, perhaps we should have sympathy.\n\n-alga-" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Straight", "address": "straight at email.unc.edu" }, "date": "1997-09-04T09:54:50+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) Re: Digest whorl.v007.n018", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "-- Begin original message --" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Alga quoted and then wrote:\nof Wolfe's answer indicate that he seemed somewhat saddened by the fact\nthat people felt they had to ask him; I sometimes suspect that Wolfe is\nupset by the degree to which we the readers attribute to him both\ninfalibility and infinite cleverness. Generally, there are answers to any\nquestion we might have, and we just have to ask the text correctly." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm a little confused by this. Why should he be saddened? He writes puzzle\nstories; we, the readers who like them (not a majority of the reading\npublic) puzzle them out and he should love the effort we put in. As an\nauthor and a professional editor (I am also a professional editor and I\nhave some idea of what this entails), he was and is certainly knowledgeable\nabout the author's responsibility in how stories succeed in getting through\nto readers. If he seemed saddened at how we +failed+ (especially of a group\nlike this), it seems a bit arrogant to me; it means that he was unclear or\ntoo cryptic or that his editor was too distracted to straighten things out." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "First of all, I'm not sure I'd agree with the description of Wolfe's works as\n\"puzzle stories.\" My impression is that Wolfe is just trying to tell stories\nin which many of the things that happen are told in a subtle way, and that his \naim is that a careful reader could catch most of what's going on.\n\nHis \"sadness\" is probably like when you make a comment or a subtle joke and no \none gets it. It's a fine line, you want people to get your jokes, but the more\nsubtle you can be and still have people get it, the more fun it is. \n\nAnd then some of the people you know start saying \"Oh! She's being SUBTLE!\" \nand proceed to find all these \"hidden meanings\" in everything you say. \n\nI'm the first to admit that I've missed major points of some of Wolfe's works\nthat were obvious once they were pointed out, but on the other hand, I feel\nlike some of the discussion on this list is streching things way beyond what\nWolfe was trying to do. That's not to say it isn't fun or that there might \nbe interesting connections that he wasn't even aware of, but I can see how it\nwould be frustrating for Wolfe both to find that something he thought was clear\nturns out to have been too obscure for many readers and also to find people \nfixating on details that he didn't mean to attach much significance to.\n\nFrankly, considering how many people would love to be able to write half as \nwell as Wolfe, I have little sympathy for him. :-)\n\n-Rostrum" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Kevin J. Maroney", "address": "kmaroney at crossover.com" }, "date": "1997-09-04T13:12:47+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) Re: Digest whorl.v007.n018", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 09:54 AM 9/4/97 -0400, you wrote:\nHis \"sadness\" is probably like when you make a comment or a subtle joke\nand no \none gets it. It's a fine line, you want people to get your jokes, but the\nmore\nsubtle you can be and still have people get it, the more fun it is. \n\nAnd then some of the people you know start saying \"Oh! She's being SUBTLE!\" \nand proceed to find all these \"hidden meanings\" in everything you say. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is more or less what I think was meant. Wolfe seemed a bit distressed\nat the people who think there are infinite layers of subtle meaning piled\ninto his stories. \n\nIncidentally, I think that Kathryn Locey's piece on \"Seven American Nights\"\nis brilliant and everyone should read it, but I am biased, since I\npublished it. \n\nHi, Alice, er, alga. " }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Wombat\n\nKevin Maroney\t\tkmaroney at crossover.com\nKitchen Staff Supervisor\tNew York Review of Science Fiction\nhttp://ebbs.english.vt.edu/olp/nyrsf/nyrsf.html" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jim Jordan", "address": "jbjordan at gnt.net" }, "date": "1997-09-05T20:20:07+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) Re: Digest whorl.v007.n018", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 01:12 PM 9/4/97 -0400, you wrote:\n\n[Posted from WHORL, the mailing list for Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun]\n\nAt 09:54 AM 9/4/97 -0400, you wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "His \"sadness\" is probably like when you make a comment or a subtle joke\nand no \none gets it. It's a fine line, you want people to get your jokes, but the\nmore\nsubtle you can be and still have people get it, the more fun it is. \n\nAnd then some of the people you know start saying \"Oh! She's being SUBTLE!\" \nand proceed to find all these \"hidden meanings\" in everything you say. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\tYes, it is a gestalt thing. Once you get the gestalt of a Wolfe story, you\ncan see how the details fit in. But if you don't \"catch\" the gestalt, the\ndetails will often lead you into byways." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This is more or less what I think was meant. Wolfe seemed a bit distressed\nat the people who think there are infinite layers of subtle meaning piled\ninto his stories. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\tI tend to agree with all sides of this. Alga is right that Wolfe seems\ndisappointed when people don't pick up stuff that he has in the text, which\nhe thinks is \"clearly\" there (like that Weer is a ghost, for instance).\nYet, often it is clear only to him, because he put it there. I have not\nfound, for instance, the \"obvious\" fact that the family of clones in \"Fifth\nHead\" is named Wolfe. (Maybe it's that Cerberus, though a dog, is like a\nwolf?) I think Wolfe has a problem at this point, and this is virtually my\nonly negative criticism of his work: He packs so much into his writing that\nthe reader has a hard time telling what is significant and what is not.\nWolfe sometime scatters too many clues, I feel.\n\tThus, people come up with the idea that Severian, for instance, is a\ndeceptive narrator, which, if true, renders the whole attempt to interpret\nthe books pretty meaningless. In other words, if the clues simply aren't\nthere at all, then we are left only with an interesting narrative and no\nmore. Which is why I don't buy this approach.\n\tI also think Wolfe is dismayed when people overinterpret his stuff -- but\nhe has asked for it! (Some of what I've seen here I'd put in that category.)\n\tFinally, I think Wolfe, like Tolkein before him, is a bit amazed at how\nlittle Christianity is known and understood by SF and fantasy readers, so\nthat obvious references to God (such as the Outsider) are frequently\nmisread. So, he has to come on-line and tell us point-blank: the Outsider\nis God! Fact is, though, you're not going to get Wolfe or Cordwainer Smith\nright if you don't know the Bible and Dante and a few other things.\n\tAt the same time, some people just aren't reading very carefully. The\nanalytical afterword in my Ace paperback edition of \"Fifth Head\" praises\nWolfe for not telling us whether V.R.T. is an alien shapeshifter or a human\nbeing; in fact, it is clear he is an alien. (Ah, but why is he called V. I\nget the R.T., but why the V. )" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Incidentally, I think that Kathryn Locey's piece on \"Seven American Nights\"\nis brilliant and everyone should read it, but I am biased, since I\npublished it. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\tI wish you distributed it better! I was in NYC last week and shopped\nseveral places, including SF stores, and nobody had the NYRSF, and most had\nnever heard of it. Is is available anywhere? Are you going to get the\narticles on line?\n\tHey, does anybody know if a new issue of Crank has come out? I'd like to\nfinish the Blaylock novel....\n\nNutria." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Straight", "address": "straight at email.unc.edu" }, "date": "1997-09-08T12:04:49+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) Re: Digest whorl.v007.n018", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, 5 Sep 1997, Jim Jordan wrote:\n\tFinally, I think Wolfe, like Tolkein before him, is a bit amazed at how\nlittle Christianity is known and understood by SF and fantasy readers, so\nthat obvious references to God (such as the Outsider) are frequently\nmisread. So, he has to come on-line and tell us point-blank: the Outsider\nis God! " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Furthermore, I think it's a shame for Wolfe to say, in a context outside\nthe text of the novel, that the Outsider \"is\" God. I'm a Christian, and\nso have absolutely no objections to Wolfe writing about God 'as if he\nreally exists,' but it seems to be cheating somehow for Wolfe to give this\nkind of extra authorial authority to God's existence in the Whorl when we\nshould be forced to evaluate the narrator's experiences for ourselves. \n\n-Rostrum" } ] } ] }