{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/whorl/474", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "whorl", "thread": { "id": 474, "subject": "Whorl Name and a theory...", "messages": 5, "voices": 3, "first": "1998-05-15T09:16:17+00:00", "last": "1998-05-18T17:15:17+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy Oakes", "address": "ddanehyo at us.oracle.com" }, "date": "1998-05-15T09:16:17+00:00", "subject": "(whorl) Whorl Name and a theory...", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Rostrum Rote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There are lots of passages where people use the same syntax\nas if they were going to say \"world\" but say \"whorl\" instead. \nStuff like, \"She's the most beautiful woman in the whole\nWhorl!\" or \"Unlike Pas and Scylla and the other gods, the\nOutsider exists outside the Whorl.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "-- in fact, in the language of the Long Sun, the word \"whorl\"\nhas replaced the word \"world\" entirely; they talk about Urth\nas the \"Short Sun Whorl\", ask questions like, \"What in the\nWhorl are you talking about?\", etc.\n\nI think there's something more going on here than meets the\neye (With Wolfe? Heaven forfend!), but I'm not quite clear\non _what_ it is.\n\nA thought does occur, of a sudden, though ... the Outsider\n(= God, the one-and-only God of Abraham and Moses, of Jesus\nand Peter) made the World; the gods (= Typhon et famille) \nmade the Whorl. The Whorl is not the World but isolated \nfrom it, a place where Typhon et alia can _be_ gods (because \nGod is specifically _excluded_). \n\nBut they couldn't _quite_ pull it off. This (if this theory\nproves out -- I think it warrants a good look) is where one \nof the most interesting pieces of narrational twisting in all\nof Wolfe takes place. We are told (by whom? Can't recall!)\nthat Typhon and company were unable to completely erase memory\nof _them_ from the starcrossers' brains. But they wouldn't\nwant to do that; it's totally against Typhon's utterly self-\naggrandizing style.\n\nRather, I suggest, they tried to erase memory of God from\nthe starcrossers -- and were unsuccessful (as they were also\nunsuccessful in keeping Him out), so that He made it into the \nprophetic \"chrasmologic\" writings (as He also made it into \nthe Whorl by enlightening the sacrificial vessel Silk).\n\nJust a thought,\n\n--Roach" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Straight", "address": "straight at email.unc.edu" }, "date": "1998-05-18T10:31:14+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) Whorl Name and a theory...", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 15 May 1998, Dan'l Danehy Oakes wrote:\nWe are told (by whom? Can't recall!)\nthat Typhon and company were unable to completely erase memory\nof _them_ from the starcrossers' brains. But they wouldn't\nwant to do that; it's totally against Typhon's utterly self-\naggrandizing style.\n\nRather, I suggest, they tried to erase memory of God from\nthe starcrossers -- and were unsuccessful (as they were also\nunsuccessful in keeping Him out), so that He made it into the \nprophetic \"chrasmologic\" writings (as He also made it into \nthe Whorl by enlightening the sacrificial vessel Silk)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The way I read that business is that Typhon et. al. wanted to erase the\nstarcrossers' memories of Typhon the Tyrant and replace them with memories\nof Allfather Pas the Omnibenificent who, when they arrived at their\ndestination, would be incarnated into a human form (the original purpose\nof Silk's body?) and be their Divine Ruler. \n\nErasing all memory of the true God would be a necessary part of this plan\nand (because he *is* the true God) was not entirely successful, as you\npoint out.\n\n-Rostrum" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Kevin J. Maroney", "address": "kmaroney at crossover.com" }, "date": "1998-05-18T12:42:34+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) Whorl Name and a theory...", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 09:16 AM 5/15/98 -0700, Dan'l (Robin) wrote:\nA thought does occur, of a sudden, though ... the Outsider\n(= God, the one-and-only God of Abraham and Moses, of Jesus\nand Peter)...." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Strictly speaking, I believe the only other name we're given for the\nOutsider is Allah. \n\nI was interested to discover Pausinas's description of altars to \"the\nunknown gods\" in his tourbook of 2nd-century c.e. Greece--obviously a major\nsource for Wolfe.\n\nWombat" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "-- \n Kevin Maroney | Crossover Technologies \n kmaroney at crossover.com | (212) 777-1190" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Straight", "address": "straight at email.unc.edu" }, "date": "1998-05-18T16:53:58+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) Whorl Name and a theory...", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, 18 May 1998, Kevin J. Maroney wrote:\nI was interested to discover Pausinas's description of altars to \"the\nunknown gods\" in his tourbook of 2nd-century c.e. Greece--obviously a major\nsource for Wolfe." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Although I would not be surprised if Wolfe had read Pausinas, I think a\nmore obvious source is St. Paul in the New Testament:\n\n Paul then stood up in the meeting of the Areopagus and said: \"Men of\n Athens! I see that in every way you are very religious. For as I walked\n around and looked carefully at your objects of worship, I even found an\n altar with this inscription: TO AN UNKNOWN GOD. Now what you worship as\n something unknown I am going to proclaim to you\" (Acts 17:22-23). \n\n-Rostrum" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Kevin J. Maroney", "address": "kmaroney at crossover.com" }, "date": "1998-05-18T17:15:17+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) Whorl Name and a theory...", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 04:53 PM 5/18/98 -0400, you wrote:\nAlthough I would not be surprised if Wolfe had read Pausinas, I think a\nmore obvious source is St. Paul in the New Testament:\n\n Paul then stood up in the meeting of the Areopagus and said: \"Men of\n Athens! I see that in every way you are very religious. For as I walked\n around and looked carefully at your objects of worship, I even found an\n altar with this inscription: TO AN UNKNOWN GOD. Now what you worship as\n something unknown I am going to proclaim to you\" (Acts 17:22-23). " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'd forgotten that one. But the use of the Outsider in the standard prayers\nin _Long Sun_ is quite similar to the Unknown Gods in Pausinas--as a\ncatch-all for those Gods who are possibly forgotten or possibly never known\nbut still deserve mention because, hey, they're *gods*." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": " Kevin Maroney | Crossover Technologies \n kmaroney at crossover.com | (212) 777-1190" } ] } ] }