{
  "export": {
    "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/whorl/547",
    "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it.  Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.",
    "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'"
  },
  "archive": "whorl",
  "thread": {
    "id": 547,
    "subject": "Origin of abos",
    "messages": 1,
    "voices": 1,
    "first": "1998-08-07T11:00:11+00:00",
    "last": "1998-08-07T11:00:11+00:00"
  },
  "messages": [
    {
      "message_id": "<whorl-v0008-0734@digest.urth.net>",
      "from": {
        "name": "mary whalen",
        "address": "marewhalen at yahoo.com"
      },
      "date": "1998-08-07T11:00:11+00:00",
      "subject": "(whorl) (urth) Origin of abos",
      "in_reply_to": null,
      "reply_link": null,
      "blocks": [
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "This is Sean Whalen (prion).\n\nI've been thinking about FHC, and I think that I can modify my\nprevious ideas to fit in with what I now think happened.\n\nHumanity originated on Sainte Anne, gained a large amount of\ntechnology, and left for Earth.  Either the shapeshifters on the\nplanet were unrelated to the humans, or else they were some form of\nhumans who stayed behind and had or gained this ability.\n\nThe humans on Earth may have mated with the native hominids.  In any\nevent, their technology was either destroyed, lost, or became confined\nto a small group (Aztecs, Illuminati, whatever your paranoia of choice\nhappens to be).\n\nSome group of humans gained greater technology or used what they\nalready mostly had to leave Earth and at least some, if not all,\narrived on Sainte Anne.\n\nThe shapeshifters saw them, and some of them took on their forms\nbecause they were impressed with the technology, and some stayed the\nway they were before.  The ones who changed forgot that they had ever\nbeen shapeshifters, probably because they imitated the human minds to\nsome degree as well (Wolfe may have wanted to indicate that souls are\nlinked to material form, or something, instead).  They might have just\nliked living as humans and never changed, then not have told their\nchildren.\n\nThe humans found out that a plant on Sainte Anne had attributes that\nthey wanted to experience, became addicted, and as a result of this\naddiction changed into Shadow Children.  They might have changed\nbecause of the chemical effects of the drug, or as a result of\nLamarckism.  They also gained telepathic power (the manipulation of\nempty space) and used it to keep other humans from coming to the planet.\n\nThe shapeshifters retained their imitated forms, and went about life\nwithout any technology, which they had never had.  They begin to lose\nthe use of shapeshifting (through Lamarckism) because they never use\nit.  They don't notice, because they never use it, and they don't even\nknow that they have it.  They might also have lost the ability of tool\nuse in the same way, if they had gained this from the humans they\nimitated.  Some primitive culture develops, and some live in the\nhills, some in the meadowmeres.  They eventually only have enough\nshifting ability to change basic appearance, and regrow limbs and\nthings (poorly).\n\nEventually, the French came.  Modern humans become aware of Sainte\nAnne.  They Hillmen and Marshmen may now realize their shapechanging\nability, possibly from being told by Sandwalker.  They mostly hide,\nalong with the Shadow Children, and modern humans take over the planet.\n\nHere's why I believe this.  The first, and, I feel, fairly minor,\npoint is that Sainte Anne and not Earth is the original place of\norigin for humans and possibly others.  I think this because of the\nGarden of Eden imagery and symbolism in the book.  Many characters\nrefer to it as like a paradise, or the last paradise they have, or\nsomething.  There's no concrete support, only the symbolism.  This is\nall there is, however, so I think it's what I have to go by.  He might\nhave put this in as misdirection, but I don't think so.  Even if I'm\nwrong, this is unimportant to the picture of events I have, anyway.\n\nWhy do I think that the Shadow Children came to Sainte Anne in ships\nand the Hillmen and Marshmen changed into human form rather than vice\nversa, as the Old Wise One eventually says?  Well, for many reasons. \nPink is the color of the sun, and the dawn.  The only people\nassociated with pink are the Hillpeople (and probably Wetlanders) who\nhave pink skin and give the name name Mary Pink Butterfly and others \nto one's child. The light (pink) must come before a shadow forms.  The\nshadows also cannot exist unless a true form exists beforehand.  They\nshadow (repeat) the actions the Hillpeople's ancestors performed\n(assuming they came from Earth, or at least from another planet). \nAlso, the Hillmen/Marshmen have green eyes, the color of Sainte Anne. \nColor symbolism is very important in the books, and I think it says a\nlot that the H/Ms are associated with the two native colors of where\nthey live.\n\nThe Shadow Children are really like children (small, younger).  The\nHillmen are older because they're as old as the HILLS.\n\nMore important than this symbolism is the fact that if the H/Ms are\nreally the descendents of humans from Earth, why did they become\nprimitive?  No reason is given, implied, etc.  However, if the SC are\nhumans who came from Earth with technology, they would have lost this\ntechnology because of their drug use.  If they are the more original\ninhabitants, they wouldn't have lost anything when they started drug\nuse, but we know that someone's technology was lost for some reason,\nand the only implied reason for which any information or clues are\ngiven is that drug use.\n\nThis scenario is also approximately what the Old Wise One first told\nSandwalker.  However, at the end, he becomes confused about who came\nfirst and says that the Shadow Children were there first and the H/Ms\ncame from Earth in ships.  So why do I think it's what he said first? \nWhen he tells it originally there are many SC and only one Hillman, so\nhe can distinguish which is which and knows what the SC think happened\n.  He can tell because six are different than one, and that's how the\nSC think.  All the SC think the same thing and so that's what forms\nthe group norm.  When there's only one Hillman and one SC he can't\ntell which is which, one and one are the same, right?  He can't figure\nout what parts of the story go with which half.  As alga has said, the\nSC have a real problem with determining identity normally. Also, in a\nnormal (non-Wolfe) story the information that a character knows at the\nend should be more true than what it was at the beginning because\nthey've learned more.  Wolfe uses turnabout (again) and has the\ninformation at the end be worse than near the beginning.  Remember how\nWolfe once complained about how readers ask why a character describes\nsomething differently than how it was seen to happen?  He said that\nthey're wrong or lying, it's just not stated.  Of course, it's\npossible that the OWO was just confused first for some other reason,\nbut this is not supported by the rest of the evidence I presented. The\nadditional evidence supports the H/M first conclusion, and the OWO's\nstatements could support either one, so it probably supports the one\nthat has other evidence.\n\nAnd if the SC first theory is right, why don't SC use mental powers to\nprevent Hillmen from coming?  Why do Hillmen devolve?  Why does Old\nWise One first think SC are more recent?  Why called SHADOW Children? \nWhy do eaters go if others who eat it stay, or if later eaters eat\nwhat may be the same thing and don't have to go at that time?\n\nprion"
        }
      ]
    }
  ]
}