{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/whorl/562", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "whorl", "thread": { "id": 562, "subject": "Digest whorl.v009.n005", "messages": 8, "voices": 6, "first": "1998-10-31T17:26:29+00:00", "last": "1998-11-04T21:10:20+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Kieran Mullen", "address": "kieran at phyast.nhn.ou.edu" }, "date": "1998-10-31T17:26:29+00:00", "subject": "(whorl) Re: Digest whorl.v009.n005", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Greg Neyman\" \nSubject: what's up with hy? ... plus building fusion reactors\nDate: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 20:45:48 -0800" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "[deletia]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Anyhoop, I've always wondered about Hy ... I mean, Silk is a sophisticated,\nmild-mannered clergyman, and Hy, is basically still a fourteen years old\ngirl, and not a well educated one at that ... every time the two\ninteracted, starting with the \"wee flea\" letter, I got this sensation in the\npit of my stomach, reminiscent of the one I get when people scratch their\nfingernails across a chalk board ... basically, I could never shake the idea\nthat the two were ALL wrong for each other ..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " Well, she is beautiful and passionate, a combination that is pretty\nattractive. If you want a more literary interpretaion, I figured that\nit was related to the allegory of the church as the bride of Christ\nwhich is also tied up with Mary Magdelene imagery (\"whoring after false\ngods\" sort of thing). Silk is a redemtive figure (though not exactly\nChristic) and Hy seemed to me to be the worldly person who is loved, for\nall of their faults and failings. Certainly Silk is on a mission to\nsave her - especially at the very end of the book.\n\n I'm still not sure I understand the change in Silk that takes place\nafter he and Hy sleep together and he has a second illumination from\nthe Outsider. (It's also been a while since I read that part.) Silk\ncertainly seems changed to me. But the storyline also seems to get\nmurkier.\n\n [deletia]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Finally, a mil plus years after all of us are dust ... why are people STILL\nspeaking English? (or is it explained in Urth, in which case, don't ruin it\nfor me ... )" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " Didn't you read \"Heh-asugh !ktungari\" in the original? Or did you\nread its English translation, \"Nightside the Long Sun\"? ;-)\n\n Kieran Mullen\n\n \n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Greg Neyman", "address": "greg.neyman at gte.net" }, "date": "1998-10-31T22:41:22+00:00", "subject": "(whorl) Re: Digest whorl.v009.n005", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thanks everyone for responding to my questions ... here goes ...\n\nRostrum -\n Chems must be able to access this information ... it's not like they\nshove the raw material in one end of them, and little chems come out (like\nbios) ... they've gotta assemble all the stuff themselves, by hand ... it's\ntrue that each has only half the plans, but if a rich person wanted fusion\npacks, all he'd have to do is take a male and female chem, and ask them to\nbuild fusion packs for him. If they were building a child, they'd get to\nthat step eventually.\n Hey, something just occurred to me ... Hammerstone mentions on many\noccasions that chems don't eat at all ... even potto says that, when\nalluding to the fact that his tunnel army can go a long time on little\nsupplies cuz most of them are chems ... but even fusion packs don't run\nforever ... energy has to be input at some time ... I refuse to believe that\nMaytera Marble, of Moly, or whatever her name is, who's lived for 300 years,\nis still running on original fuel. Thoughts?\n Thank you Keiran for replying to my question bout Hy ... as for English,\ntwo things ... first of all, as Ranjit points out, French and Latin are\nmentioned BY name .. second, poetic effects like puns and deliberate\nalliteration (Overseeing Outsider, marvelous molpe, etc) are bound to the\nlanguage they originated in, and would be lost in translation. Plus note\nthe use of shag as their \"f\" word, a throwback of British English.\n that's it for now ...\n\n /\\/\\ Greg Neyman Greg.Neyman at gte.net\n___/____\\___ http://www.trailerpark.com/siesta/thehat/\n |HE HA|\n\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Alex David Groce", "address": "adgroce at eos.ncsu.edu" }, "date": "1998-11-01T10:50:03+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) Re: Digest whorl.v009.n005", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Greg Neyman wrote:\nThanks everyone for responding to my questions ... here goes ...\n\nRostrum -\n Chems must be able to access this information ... it's not like they\nshove the raw material in one end of them, and little chems come out (like\nbios) ... they've gotta assemble all the stuff themselves, by hand ... it's\ntrue that each has only half the plans, but if a rich person wanted fusion\npacks, all he'd have to do is take a male and female chem, and ask them to\nbuild fusion packs for him. If they were building a child, they'd get to\nthat step eventually.\n Hey, something just occurred to me ... Hammerstone mentions on many\noccasions that chems don't eat at all ... even potto says that, when\nalluding to the fact that his tunnel army can go a long time on little\nsupplies cuz most of them are chems ... but even fusion packs don't run\nforever ... energy has to be input at some time ... I refuse to believe that\nMaytera Marble, of Moly, or whatever her name is, who's lived for 300 years,\nis still running on original fuel. Thoughts?\n Thank you Keiran for replying to my question bout Hy ... as for English,\ntwo things ... first of all, as Ranjit points out, French and Latin are\nmentioned BY name .. second, poetic effects like puns and deliberate\nalliteration (Overseeing Outsider, marvelous molpe, etc) are bound to the\nlanguage they originated in, and would be lost in translation. Plus note\nthe use of shag as their \"f\" word, a throwback of British English.\n that's it for now ..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\tHmmm... But, unless we assume that the people of the future are ALSO\nspeaking British slang that's no longer used in 1999, we have to assume that\nthe whole thing is a translation, and that slang terms, puns, etc. are\nanalagous to the original (although, of course, really non-existent because\nWolfe wrote it in English, but means it to be a translation of a fictional\nbook) ones. This can be done, although it's very hard (see Douglas\nHofstadter's Le Ton Beau de Marot for a beautiful book on translation issues,\nsuch as these, although I don't recall him really getting into the issue of\ntranslations of fictional books...)" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "\"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free.\" - John 8:32\n--\nAlex David Groce (adgroce at eos.ncsu.edu)\nSenior (Computer Science/Multidisciplinary Studies in Technology & Fiction)\n'98-99 NCSU AITP Student Chapter President\n608 Charleston Road, Apt. 1E (919)-233-7366\nhttp://www4.ncsu.edu/~adgroce\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Matthew Malthouse", "address": "matthew.malthouse at guardian.co.uk" }, "date": "1998-11-01T20:35:05+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) Re: Digest whorl.v009.n005", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Greg Neyman wrote:\n Thank you Keiran for replying to my question bout Hy ... as for English,\ntwo things ... first of all, as Ranjit points out, French and Latin are\nmentioned BY name .. second, poetic effects like puns and deliberate\nalliteration (Overseeing Outsider, marvelous molpe, etc) are bound to the\nlanguage they originated in, and would be lost in translation. Plus note\nthe use of shag as their \"f\" word, a throwback of British English.\n that's it for now ..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Tolkien, in his exposition upon the Common Toungue and the languages of Middle\nEarth, says that he uses English to _represent_ the Common Tounge and as such\nnames like Merriadoc, Samwise and Brandywine/Branduin have been changed to\n\"work\" rather than leave them in the \"original\". I haven't got a copy but the\n\"real\" names are given.\n\nI've usually taken this to be a reasonable way of looking at much fantasy/sf\nso that the language doesn't intrude. It certainly covers the alliterative\nphrases in Whorl and the French & Latin as \"analogue foreign/ancient languages\nin Urth.\n\nMatthew\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Straight", "address": "straight at email.unc.edu" }, "date": "1998-11-02T08:43:38+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) Re: Digest whorl.v009.n005", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sat, 31 Oct 1998, Greg Neyman wrote:\nRostrum -\n Chems must be able to access this information ... it's not like they\nshove the raw material in one end of them, and little chems come out (like\nbios) ... they've gotta assemble all the stuff themselves, by hand ... it's\ntrue that each has only half the plans, but if a rich person wanted fusion\npacks, all he'd have to do is take a male and female chem, and ask them to\nbuild fusion packs for him. If they were building a child, they'd get to\nthat step eventually." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I guess I'm imagining that a male and female get together and start making\nthe little chem and go into an different mode of consciousness, after\nwhich they couldn't really tell you what they did or how they did it.\nAll part of Typhon's plan to keep technology out of the wrong hands.\n\nAnd OF COURSE they would demand privacy.\n\n-Rostrum\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Alex David Groce", "address": "adgroce at eos.ncsu.edu" }, "date": "1998-11-02T11:53:21+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) Re: Digest whorl.v009.n005", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Rostrum said:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I guess I'm imagining that a male and female get together and start making\nthe little chem and go into an different mode of consciousness, after\nwhich they couldn't really tell you what they did or how they did it.\nAll part of Typhon's plan to keep technology out of the wrong hands.\n\nAnd OF COURSE they would demand privacy." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\tYes. Clearly the whole system has been designed by Typhon to keep\nuseful technology out of the cargo's hands--not that Typhon did such a hot\njob... It's easy to imagine a program that the Chems can run but can't\nconsciously access--they can \"do it\", but are made so they can't figure out how\nthey do it. I mean, people can have kids, but for most of history, if you'd\ntaken two people aside and said--\"When you have sex and out comes a kid, how\ndoes that work? I'm thinking of using hearts for power packs on my new\ncatapults,\" well you get the picture." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "\"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free.\" - John 8:32\n--\nAlex David Groce (adgroce at eos.ncsu.edu)\nSenior (Computer Science/Multidisciplinary Studies in Technology & Fiction)\n'98-99 NCSU AITP Student Chapter President\n608 Charleston Road, Apt. 1E (919)-233-7366\nhttp://www4.ncsu.edu/~adgroce\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Derek Bell", "address": "dbell at maths.tcd.ie" }, "date": "1998-11-04T21:10:20+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) Re: Digest whorl.v009.n005", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In message <199811021653.IAA28654 at lists1.best.com>, Alex David Groce writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes. Clearly the whole system has been designed by Typhon to keep\nuseful technology out of the cargo's hands--not that Typhon did such a hot\njob..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\tI think Typhon had more than one motive for giving the cargo\nlower tech - control is the obvious one, but it might also give them\nan advantage if things go badly on the destination planet. A lot of\nknowledge and skills that were relatively common a century or two ago\n(horseriding, blacksmithing) are scarcer now. They still exist, but if\nsome emergency occured that wiped out the infrastructure (a large, protracted\nnon-nuclear war), it would take longer to get back to the level of\ntechnology than if the skills hadn't been cultivated.\n\n\tPut it another way, the Amish *may* be Y2K insurance policy! :-)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It's easy to imagine a program that the Chems can run but can't\nconsciously access--they can \"do it\", but are made so they can't\nfigure out how they do it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\tPut it another way - describe how to walk - in detail. Now try\nto build a two-legged robot that walks like a human." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I mean, people can have kids, but for most of history, if you'd taken\ntwo people aside and said--\"When you have sex and out comes a kid,\nhow does that work? I'm thinking of using hearts for power packs on\nmy new catapults,\" well you get the picture." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\t;-) I have this image of sex manuals for chems - or would that\nbe in firmware?\n\n\tTercel\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Derek Bell", "address": "dbell at maths.tcd.ie" }, "date": "1998-11-04T20:56:03+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) Re: Digest whorl.v009.n005", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In message <199811011551.HAA06589 at lists1.best.com>, Alex David Groce writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Hmmm... But, unless we assume that the people of the future are ALSO\nspeaking British slang that's no longer used in 1999, we have to assume that\nthe whole thing is a translation, and that slang terms, puns, etc. are\nanalagous to the original (although, of course, really non-existent because\nWolfe wrote it in English, but means it to be a translation of a fictional\nbook) ones. This can be done, although it's very hard (see Douglas\nHofstadter's Le Ton Beau de Marot for a beautiful book on translation issues,\nsuch as these, although I don't recall him really getting into the issue of\ntranslations of fictional books...)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\tYou've reminded me of a metaphor that Hofstadter used in one\nof his books (I forget which). Translation can be thought of as like\ncrossing a river on stepping stones. Here's a diagram:\n(This is using a non-proportional font)\n\n--------------------------------------------------------------\n o X s\n\n X o s\n\n X s\n o\n X s\n X o s\n--------------------------------------------------------------\n\n\tImagine the \"X\"s as representing the spirit of a text to be\ntranslated. The \"o\"s represent words that are close in sense, but\nthat have a different spirit. Meanwhile, there are stones further along the\nriver (\"s\"s) that have a closer spirit, but a spirit \"parallel\" to the\noriginal.\n\n\tI agree entirely with Alex that it's very hard to translate\ntext that relies a lot on puns, allusions and other wordplay: some\nphilosophers, such as Heidegger[1], Nietzsche & Derrida[2] have been\ndifficult to translate because of this.\n\n\tDerek\n\n[1]Hmmmm... the 3 philosophers I've chosen are all controversial.\n\n[2]I know there's a huge controversy over whether Derrida's a\nphilosopher or merely a sophist with a big following, but his writings\ndo seem to rely on a lot of wordplay, which made, for example, _Glas_\ndifficult to translate because of French puns (\"Hegel\" & \"eagle\")\nwhich don't translate well \n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] } ] }