{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/whorl/580", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "whorl", "thread": { "id": 580, "subject": "Nightside again, chapter one", "messages": 10, "voices": 8, "first": "1998-12-11T11:48:00+00:00", "last": "1998-12-15T19:15:49+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jonathan Laidlow", "address": "laidlojm at hhs.bham.ac.uk" }, "date": "1998-12-11T12:28:49+00:00", "subject": "(whorl) Nightside again, chapter one", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Stephen Witkoswksi inspired to begin rereading Long Sun again, and \nI'd be grateful for your input folks:\n\nNightside chapter 1 - two things I noticed:\n\n1. the word 'clockwork' is used three times in the first three pages. \nPatera Silk is 'that absurd clockwork figure' in the parenthesis in \nthe second paragraph, and he watches the game 'outside a clockwork \nshow whose works had stopped'. This is where Silk has his first \ntheophany (love that word!). The Outsider gives him an out of body \nexperience and reveals how he is merely a mechanical creation \n(figuratively) who does what he has been programmed to do?\nThen again on p11 at the end of the vision: 'a wind that blew ever \nstronger and wilder as clockwork that had never really stopped began \nto turn again'. This then suggests that all is artificial, created - \nthe wind is unnatural, but guided by the clockwork maker.\n\nI'm wondering how to reconcile this with Silk's assertion later in \nthe chapter that the Outside will not help save the Manteion, Silk is \nthe help that is being provided.\n\n2. And another thing,back to the first paragraph: 'he said that it \nwas as though someone who had always been behind him and standing \n(as it were) at both his shoulders had, after so many years of \npregnant silence, begun to whisper into both his ears'\nThis echoes TS Eliot's Waste Land: 'Who is that who walks behind you' \n(Eliot's note refers to polar explorers, but that's a red herring). \nBoth refer to some passage in the Bible, presumably after the \nResurrection where Jesus is seen by various people, but where? And \nwhy?\n\n\nJonathan\n********************************************************\n\nJonathan Laidlow\nDept of English - staff pigeonholes\nUniversity of Birmingham\nEdgbaston\nBirmingham\nB15 2TT, England\n0121 414 5976\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Patri10629", "address": "patri10629 at aol.com" }, "date": "1998-12-11T13:18:02+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) Nightside again, chapter one", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Nice work, Stephen.\n\nIn a message dated 12/11/98 8:36:44 AM, LAIDLOJM at hhs.bham.ac.uk writes:\n\n<>\n\nI take this as something like, \"After the theophany, time resumed and the\napparent order of the whorl continued.\n\nI'm wondering how to reconcile this with Silk's assertion later in \nthe chapter that the Outside will not help save the Manteion, Silk is \nthe help that is being provided." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The clock work imagery, I believe refers to an outdated mode of looking at the\nuniverse--Ptolemy? The old Gods and the constructed artificial whorl. False\ngods, false paradigms.\n\nThe Outsider is from a whole other realm of being--a transcendent God. Silk\nthrough his revelation is his intervention. Christ, obviously.\n\nForgive if all this is obvious.\n\nPatrick O'Leary\n\n\nPatrick O'Leary's Home\nPage\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jason Voegele", "address": "voegele.6 at osu.edu" }, "date": "1998-12-11T11:48:00+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) Nightside again, chapter one", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "2. And another thing,back to the first paragraph: 'he said that it\nwas as though someone who had always been behind him and standing\n(as it were) at both his shoulders had, after so many years of\npregnant silence, begun to whisper into both his ears'\nThis echoes TS Eliot's Waste Land: 'Who is that who walks behind you'\n(Eliot's note refers to polar explorers, but that's a red herring).\nBoth refer to some passage in the Bible, presumably after the\nResurrection where Jesus is seen by various people, but where? And\nwhy?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This reminds me of the passage in PEACE, in which Aunt Olivia is speaking to\nKatie and says:\n\n\"Who's that behind you?\"\n\"It's just little Den, Katie. He's been there before.\"\n\"Yes, but there's another, dimmer yet, behind him.\"\n\"I can only see the one behind me, Katie.\"\n\nI think mantis cited the Eliot reference when I first mentioned this. In\nfact, straight from the archives:\n\n\nI have to admit that this rings bells\nin the literary dept. of my brain--T.S. Eliot's \"The Wasteland,\"\nwherein the same haunting question is derived from the journals of\nEnglish adventurers climbing Mt. Everest and having hallucinations\nfrom lack of oxygen. (It also evokes the missionaries in the jungle\ngarden of Nessus sensing the presence of Severian and Agia.) But, to\nget back to PEACE, I suspect that the dimmer one is the reader.\"You.\"\n\n\nI don't have anything new to add to the discussion, since (sigh) I've never\nread The Wasteland, but I thought I'd throw something out there for you all\nto chew on.\n\nJason Voegele\nvoegele.6 at osu.edu\n\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Alex David Groce", "address": "adgroce at eos.ncsu.edu" }, "date": "1998-12-11T11:58:40+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) Nightside again, chapter one", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jonathan Laidlow wrote:\nStephen Witkoswksi inspired to begin rereading Long Sun again, and \nI'd be grateful for your input folks:\n\nNightside chapter 1 - two things I noticed:\n\n1. the word 'clockwork' is used three times in the first three pages. \nPatera Silk is 'that absurd clockwork figure' in the parenthesis in \nthe second paragraph, and he watches the game 'outside a clockwork \nshow whose works had stopped'. This is where Silk has his first \ntheophany (love that word!). The Outsider gives him an out of body \nexperience and reveals how he is merely a mechanical creation \n(figuratively) who does what he has been programmed to do?\nThen again on p11 at the end of the vision: 'a wind that blew ever \nstronger and wilder as clockwork that had never really stopped began \nto turn again'. This then suggests that all is artificial, created - \nthe wind is unnatural, but guided by the clockwork maker.\n\nI'm wondering how to reconcile this with Silk's assertion later in \nthe chapter that the Outside will not help save the Manteion, Silk is \nthe help that is being provided.\n\n2. And another thing,back to the first paragraph: 'he said that it \nwas as though someone who had always been behind him and standing \n(as it were) at both his shoulders had, after so many years of \npregnant silence, begun to whisper into both his ears'\nThis echoes TS Eliot's Waste Land: 'Who is that who walks behind you' \n(Eliot's note refers to polar explorers, but that's a red herring). \nBoth refer to some passage in the Bible, presumably after the \nResurrection where Jesus is seen by various people, but where? And \nwhy?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\tRoad to Emmaus, Luke 24:13-31. I think it's in there same reason Eliot\nused it--an explicit reference to Emmaus, probably here to indicate (in part)\nthe \"resurrection\" of the true church, through Silk, in the Whorl.." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "\"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free.\" - John 8:32\n--\nAlex David Groce (adgroce at eos.ncsu.edu)\nSenior (Computer Science/Multidisciplinary Studies in Technology & Fiction)\n'98-99 NCSU AITP Student Chapter President\n608 Charleston Road, Apt. 1E (919)-233-7366\nhttp://www4.ncsu.edu/~adgroce\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "William H. Ansley", "address": "wansley at warwick.net" }, "date": "1998-12-13T01:40:53+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) Nightside again, chapter one", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "2. And another thing,back to the first paragraph: 'he said that it\nwas as though someone who had always been behind him and standing\n(as it were) at both his shoulders had, after so many years of\npregnant silence, begun to whisper into both his ears'\nThis echoes TS Eliot's Waste Land: 'Who is that who walks behind you'\n(Eliot's note refers to polar explorers, but that's a red herring).\nBoth refer to some passage in the Bible, presumably after the\nResurrection where Jesus is seen by various people, but where? And\nwhy?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This reminds me of the passage in PEACE, in which Aunt Olivia is speaking to\nKatie and says:\n\n\"Who's that behind you?\"\n\"It's just little Den, Katie. He's been there before.\"\n\"Yes, but there's another, dimmer yet, behind him.\"\n\"I can only see the one behind me, Katie.\"\n\nI think mantis cited the Eliot reference when I first mentioned this. In\nfact, straight from the archives:\n\n\nI have to admit that this rings bells\nin the literary dept. of my brain--T.S. Eliot's \"The Wasteland,\"\nwherein the same haunting question is derived from the journals of\nEnglish adventurers climbing Mt. Everest and having hallucinations\nfrom lack of oxygen. (It also evokes the missionaries in the jungle\ngarden of Nessus sensing the presence of Severian and Agia.) But, to\nget back to PEACE, I suspect that the dimmer one is the reader.\"You.\"\n\n\nI don't have anything new to add to the discussion, since (sigh) I've never\nread The Wasteland, but I thought I'd throw something out there for you all\nto chew on.\n\nJason Voegele\nvoegele.6 at osu.edu" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm afraid I just can't let this pass, even though I suppose I am picking\nnits. In the passage quoted above from _Peace_, the person speaking to Katy\nis not Aunt Olivia, it is Hannah, Weer's mother's (and grandmother's) cook,\nas a girl. This passage occurs when Weer is remembering when Hannah told\nhim (when he was a boy) a story that her (Hannah's) mother's\nmaid-of-all-work, Katie, had told her. Katie can 'see' Weer listening to\nthe story and \"another, dimmer yet, behind him.\" Hannah can tell her that\nWeer (little Den) is there because she 'knows' that she is telling him the\nstory. (Why can Katie see Weer and the one behind him? Because she is Irish\nand has second sight?) The \"dimmer\" one is, I agree with mantis, the\nreader, who is reading the story that Katie told Hannah who told Weer who\nwrote it down for us to read, thereby telling it to us.\n\nI came to this conclusion myself, long ago, after reading _Peace_ for the\n3rd or 4th time and puzzling over this passage. The realization that Wolfe\nwas, in effect, talking about *me* here hit me with the force of revelation\nat the time. I found it a much more effective trick than the one Wolfe used\nin _Exodus from the Long Sun_ where the alert reader discovers that the\nperson telling the story is Horn (when he refers to himself as \"I\" at one\npoint). (I have to admit I wasn't a very alert reader; I didn't really\nnotice this until it was pointed out to me in this list.)\n\nI won't claim that my interpretation of the passage is the only correct\none, but to me it the only one that makes sense.\n\nWilliam Ansley\n\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Kevin J. Maroney", "address": "kmaroney at crossover.com" }, "date": "1998-12-13T14:50:34+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) Nightside again, chapter one", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 01:40 AM 12/13/98 -0500, William Ansley wrote:\nI found it a much more effective trick than the one Wolfe used\nin _Exodus from the Long Sun_ where the alert reader discovers that the\nperson telling the story is Horn (when he refers to himself as \"I\" at one\npoint). (I have to admit I wasn't a very alert reader; I didn't really\nnotice this until it was pointed out to me in this list.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I noticed it and assumed that it was a copyediting mistake until I got to\nthe end! I don't know what that says about me.\nWombat, a.k.a. Kevin Maroney kmaroney at crossover.com\nKitchen Staff Supervisor, New York Review of Science Fiction\nhttp://ebbs.english.vt.edu/olp/nyrsf/nyrsf.html\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Derek Bell", "address": "dbell at maths.tcd.ie" }, "date": "1998-12-14T20:20:36+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) Nightside again, chapter one", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In message <199812131953.LAA19875 at lists1.best.com>, \"Kevin J. Maroney\" writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I noticed it and assumed that it was a copyediting mistake until I got to\nthe end! I don't know what that says about me." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\tMe almost three - when it was pointed out on the list, I\nrealised that Wolfe was up to some very sneaky things. I had to admit\nthat at first I was a bit disappointed in the Long Sun series,\nthinking at first that Wolfe's talent had diminished. I was delighted\nto discover that though he was chanting plainly, he was still up to\nhis old tricks. (Leaving clues and indirect implications in the text;\nmaking philosophical & theological arguments in the text.)\n\n\tHmmm... Is it just me or has anyone else resorted to religious\nimagery in describing Wolfe's strategies?\n\n\tI suppose Wolfe's least satisfying work was _Pandora, by Holly\nHollander_, but even there he had a few subtle references[1] & jokes, but\nnothing comparable to _TBoTNS_ or _TBoTLS_. Wolfe also wrote it as an\nallegory; or at least it's capable of being read as an allegory about\nlove, the different kinds of love.\n\n\tDerek\n\n[1]I think I caught a couple of musical references related to Chicago.\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Kevin J. Maroney", "address": "kmaroney at crossover.com" }, "date": "1998-12-14T15:57:45+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) Nightside again, chapter one", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 08:20 PM 12/14/98 +0000, Derek wrote:\nI suppose Wolfe's least satisfying work was _Pandora, by Holly\nHollander_, but even there he had a few subtle references[1] & jokes, but\nnothing comparable to _TBoTNS_ or _TBoTLS_. Wolfe also wrote it as an\nallegory; or at least it's capable of being read as an allegory about\nlove, the different kinds of love." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I seem to recall someone mentioning that one of Wolfe's contemporary novels\nincludes, among other things, an elaborate and almost completely invisible\nanalogy/allegory of the War of the Roses. Was that _Pandora_? \n\n(Yes, I know that question should go onto the Urth List.)\n\n\nWombat, a.k.a. Kevin Maroney kmaroney at crossover.com\nKitchen Staff Supervisor, New York Review of Science Fiction\nhttp://ebbs.english.vt.edu/olp/nyrsf/nyrsf.html\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Straight", "address": "straight at email.unc.edu" }, "date": "1998-12-15T08:36:28+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) Nightside again, chapter one", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, 11 Dec 1998, Jonathan Laidlow wrote:\n1. the word 'clockwork' is used three times in the first three pages. \nPatera Silk is 'that absurd clockwork figure' in the parenthesis in \nthe second paragraph, and he watches the game 'outside a clockwork \nshow whose works had stopped'...The Outsider gives him an out of body\nexperience and reveals how he is merely a mechanical creation\n(figuratively) who does what he has been programmed to do?\nThen again on p11 at the end of the vision: 'a wind that blew ever\nstronger and wilder as clockwork that had never really stopped began\nto turn again'. This then suggests that all is artificial, created -\nthe wind is unnatural, but guided by the clockwork maker." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Interesting. I don't know if I've ever heard to someone say that if the\nuniverse is a created thing, then it is \"artificial\" or \"unnatural.\"\n\nOf course \"clockwork\" may just be Silk's metaphor for how everything\nseemed to stop suddenly and how he saw himself in relation to Everything. \nNot necessarily an assertion that all is mechanical, but an attempt to\ndescribe the oddity of everything behaving mechanically for a moment. \n\nA fourth instance you don't cite is Silk's impression that the \"shining\nclockwork had gone some trifle awry.\" This might imply Silk or Horn\ninterpreting the vision in light of their later knowledge of the Whorl's\nmanufactured nature. Is it the Whorl that is clockwork or the whole\nuniverse?\n\nThen again, \"clockwork\" might be a carryover from Silk's pre-enlightenment\ncosmology about Pas creating the Whorl.\n\nNote also that the first paragraph identifies the enlightenment narrative\nas the way Silk \"talked about it afterward\" -- so that tells us where Horn\ngets it, and is a very subtle clue that everything we read about Silk's\ninner life may be from how he related it to others. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm wondering how to reconcile this with Silk's assertion later in\nthe chapter that the Outside will not help save the Manteion, Silk is\nthe help that is being provided." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You seem to be saying that if the universe were artificial clockwork, then\nthe Outsider would be able to control it. That seems backwards to me. \nClassically (as Alga pointed out) the idea of a \"clockwork\" universe was\nmeant to imply that God winds the universe up and then never interferes\nwith miracles or theophonies. So maybe the theophany shows the universe\nis a bigger, weirder place than the \"clockwork\" of the Whorl and you can't\nrule out the possiblity of divine intervention. Or maybe theophanies that\nhappen between the ticks of the clock don't count. Or maybe Silk just had\na small stroke.\n\nThe Outsider, by the way, doesn't say he won't help save the Manteion, he\nsays he already has helped save the Manteion by sending Silk." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "2. And another thing,back to the first paragraph: 'he said that it \nwas as though someone who had always been behind him and standing \n(as it were) at both his shoulders had, after so many years of \npregnant silence, begun to whisper into both his ears'\nThis echoes TS Eliot's Waste Land: 'Who is that who walks behind you' \n(Eliot's note refers to polar explorers, but that's a red herring). \nBoth refer to some passage in the Bible, presumably after the \nResurrection where Jesus is seen by various people, but where? And \nwhy?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In Silk's words I hear neither Eliot (who asks \"Who is the third who walks\nalways beside you\"--much closer to the passage in PEACE than to this) nor\nthe road to Emmaus (in which a stranger is met along the road and is\nrevealed as Christ in the breaking of bread), but Isaiah:\n\n\"He will surely be gracious to you at the sound of your cry; when he hears\nit, he will answer you...and when you turn to the right or when you turn\nto the left, your ears shall hear a word behind you, saying, 'This is the\nway; walk in it'\" (Isaiah 30:19b, 21).\n\nNote that the voice is heard in the context of answer to prayer, as Silk's\nenlightenment (and Silk himself) was an answer to Pike's prayer.\n\n-Rostrum\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Derek Bell", "address": "dbell at maths.tcd.ie" }, "date": "1998-12-15T19:15:49+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) Nightside again, chapter one", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In message <199812142101.NAA22981 at lists1.best.com>, \"Kevin J. Maroney\" writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I seem to recall someone mentioning that one of Wolfe's contemporary novels\nincludes, among other things, an elaborate and almost completely invisible\nanalogy/allegory of the War of the Roses. Was that _Pandora_? " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\tIt might be - I'm afraid that I'm a bit weak on that part of\nhistory. (That was the war between the houses of Lancaster & York,\nright?)\n\n\tMaybe I'm reading too much in to _Pandora_, but there seem to\nbe two puns referring to the same genre of popular music.\n\n\tDerek\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] } ] }