Subject: (whorl) Spoiler on the connection between New Sun/Long Sun

From: Kevin J. Maroney <kmaroney at crossover.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 10:28:37 +0000

At 11:19 PM 2/15/99 -0600, Robert Patterson wrote:
>I searched the archives and also for a FAQ, but I cannot find any
>discussion of direct links between New Sun & Long Sun. Has anyone proved
>that they are from the same universe? Or do we simply take it on faith
>because Amazon says so? (I worry that this is a bone-crushingly stupid
>question, but I can't remember any obvious connections.)

The link is explicit, but like so many things in Wolfe's works, is
mentioned only once, and you have to make the connection yourself. 

Somewhere in _Lake of the Long Sun_, one of the characters (Cypris, if I
recall correctly) mentions that before he entered Mainframe, Pas's name was
Typhon. 

So it is clear that the _Whorl_ was built and launched by Typhon, the
two-headed tyrant autarch of long-ago, whom Severian meets in _Sword of the
Lictor_. 

That's the only explicit connection between the two works that I've seen or
heard. Other links have been guessed at, but as nearly as I can tell, there
is no conclusive evidence about them. 

-- 
   Kevin Maroney | Crossover Technologies 
   kmaroney at crossover.com | (212) 777-1190

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---

From: Kieran Cleary <kierannwn at tinet.ie>
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 15:51:50 +0000

Well there's also the depiction of Pas as being two-headed in Kypris'
temptation of Silk at the end of Exodus. So unless Wolfe has an undue liking
for two-headed tyrants......

There may have been a mural as well, but I can't quite remember.

Kieran C.

North West Labs
Finisklin Industrial Estate
Sligo
Republic of Ireland

Tel. +353 71 69441
Fax. +353 71 69451
email: kierannwn at tinet.ie

---

From: Kevin J. Maroney <kmaroney at crossover.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 11:35:17 +0000

>for two-headed tyrants......

Pas is depicted as two-headed throughout _Long Sun_--I believe that the
description of the mural in the auditorium in the brothel in _Nightside_
mentions his two heads (and two penises, since the mural is a blasphemous
ribaldry). 

Pas being two-headed would not be an *explicit* link to _New Sun_. But
people probably would have made the connection even without Kypris's
comment--I can't imagine Mantis not having noticed it eventually, for
instance, and I distinctly remember that when I read that sentence in
_Lake_, I slapped myself on the forehead (literally!) for not having made
the connection myself. 

Wombat, a.k.a. Kevin Maroney kmaroney at crossover.com
Kitchen Staff Supervisor, New York Review of Science Fiction
http://ebbs.english.vt.edu/olp/nyrsf/nyrsf.html

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From: Charles Dye <raster at highfiber.com>
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 09:43:29 +0000

At 10:10 PM 2/16/99, Robert Patterson wrote:

>I noticed in the archives a discussion of the derivation of some of the
>Long Sun words. The one I saw for "talus" failed to give the most
>important  reference. Talus was a demigod character in Spencer's "The
>Fairie Queen" who accompanied one of the knights on many of his
>adventures. He was invincibly strong, fairly stupid, and rather
>unpleasant for a "good" guy. His whole purpose was to implement justice
>untempered by mercy or extenuating circumstances. In one scene he
>slaughtered an entire town for a minor infraction. He was similar to
>Long Sun taluses in many important ways, and I am certain that is where
>Wolfe got the name.

Not bad.  Not bad at all -- this fits the Long Sun taluses nicely!

But doesn't Mr. Wolfe explicitly mention guard robots under the Talos
entry in "Onomastics?"  A role Dr. Talos actually plays in Chapter
XXXV of _Sword_ -- there's one small connection for you.

raster at highfiber.com

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From: Robert Patterson <rpatterson at promus.com>
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 11:14:18 +0000

> XXXV of _Sword_ -- there's one small connection for you.
	Okay. Perhaps Wolfe & Edmund Spencer read some of the same books!

	Robert