{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/whorl/610", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "whorl", "thread": { "id": 610, "subject": "metallic lifeforms, artificial worlds", "messages": 2, "voices": 2, "first": "1999-05-13T15:02:00+00:00", "last": "1999-05-17T12:51:51+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Andre-Driussi", "address": "mantis at sirius.com" }, "date": "1999-05-13T15:02:00+00:00", "subject": "(whorl) metallic lifeforms, artificial worlds", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Greg Neyman wrote:\nbut the basic nutrients will be there, stuff life amino acids and simple\nlipids ... there was this experiment conducted a few years ago ... a student\ncreated a proto-earth-like environment in a class tube ... methane/ammonia\nrich air ... UV and electrical (lightning) bombardment ... the next morning,\nhe had simple organic chemical chains dripping from the electrodes ...\nchemicals that were compatible with earth life." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, but actually, as I understand it, the experiments you describe\nproduced =both= Left-handed and Right-handed amino acids, in equal amounts.\nThe odd thing is, all life on Earth is built from Left-handed amino acids.\n\nSo what happened to all the Right-handed DNA lifeforms? Or is D-DNA life\njust somehow impossible, and L-DNA the only life in the galaxy/universe?\n\nThe situation is rather similar to the question facing astronomy regarding\nanti-matter: if anti-matter was created at the Big Bang, then where is it\ntoday? If it was created in amount equal to that of matter, as it seems it\nshould have, then mutual annihilation would have taken out both. Puzzling.\nBut astronomy at least has stars to look at--xenobiology is still purely\nspeculative." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't see\nwhy terraforming robots necessarily need to be self aware ... anymore so\nthan the pathfinder probe that's rusting on mars right now is \"self-aware\"\n... the path finder probe was limitedly self-aware ... it knew it was the\nthing that was to respond to all instructions from earth ... and that's all\nthe terraforming robots need to know ... they're the agents that will be\nenacting all implanted commands ... they maybe very complex commands, ones\nthat demand a very sophisticated AI, but that doesn't necessarily demand\nsapience" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, using the Pathfinder as a terraforming role model is flawed, since\nPathefinder was relying upon human feedback with a relatively short delay\ncycle, whereas terraforming will have a delay cycle of years or decades\n(hmmm, still . . . there's an idea! Since the terraforming process takes\nso long anyway, maybe phone home for questions? Ah, but who will answer\nthe phone?). But granted, terraforming robots don't need to be self-aware,\nbut as I meant to say, it sure would be handy, since it seems that it would\nat the very least have to know when it was \"hungry\" (GOTO refuel\nsubroutine), \"hurt\" (GOTO self-repair subroutine), and \"horny\" (GOTO\nsingles bar subroutine). If the robot is not self-replicating, then the\nmission is nearly hopeless or so overweighted with an army of robot\none-shots that you might as well send humans--the robots have been priced\nout of the market (prohibitively expensive star flight).\n\nAnd if Von Neumann-style reproducing robots are used, then it looks a lot\nlike \"life\"; which is why I brought up that detail about the ethics of\nexterminating even a disease on Earth today. Nevermind if it is self-aware\nor not.\n\nNow then--on to something new.\n\nArtificial Worlds.\n\nWhat happens to lifeforms on a world that is completely artificial? We are\naware of how various details of a planet work their way into the lifeforms;\neven how continents shape the lifeforms into their own signature design.\n\nNiven's Ringworld is a case where, iirc, humanoids have expanded to fill\nevery ecological niche. So there are grazer humanoids, and carnivore\nhumanoids, and ghoul humanoids, and vampire humanoids, etc. Yes, Stapledon\ndid a similar thing, but in Niven's case it brings us closer to Gene\nWolfe's beastmen scenarios, from \"Tracking Song\" (which even has strong\nhints of terraforming) through \"The Tale of the Boy Called Frog\" and so on.\n\nMaybe relating to the worlds of Blue and Green.\n\nMaybe relating to Saint Anne and Saint Croix. Depends on how we read that\nscenario. If it is the real star I think it is, then the human explorers\nwould believe it could not harbor habitable planets . . . not =natural=\nones, at least. But sure, it could easily handle a terraformed world or\ntwo (in fact, it would be =prime real estate= for those capable of doing\nsuch things, because the long life of the star), and the freaky \"twin\nplanet\" set-up could help keep both planets rotating, maintaining\nhabitability for both.\n\nThis is highly speculative! There is no direct hint that the worlds were\nbuilt from scratch by some forerunner starfaring race. And there are the\nusual cans of worms involved, etc. But the Point I'm trying to convey\nright now is that: if it =is= a pair of artificial worlds, this might go a\nways toward explaining how very messed up and artificial-seeming all the\nhumanoids are--that is, they are being shaped by their physical\nenvironment, in the same way that Ringworld shapes humanoids into grazers,\ncarnivores, ghouls, etc. And their flaws reflect, mimic, mirror the\nhidden-yet-present flaws of the planet.\n\nWolfe is keenly aware of how environment shapes the lifeforms, a fact his\nreaders are well aware of. So this 5HC thought may be fanciful but it is\nwell within Wolfe's field of interest.\n\n=mantis=\n\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Alastair Reynolds", "address": "areynold at estsa2.estec.esa.nl" }, "date": "1999-05-17T12:51:51+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) metallic lifeforms, artificial worlds", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Mantis:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes, but actually, as I understand it, the experiments you describe\nproduced =both= Left-handed and Right-handed amino acids, in equal amounts.\nThe odd thing is, all life on Earth is built from Left-handed amino acids." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "someone had a theory recently (it was covered in New Scientist) that \nneutron stars might be responsible for the left-handedness of life here,\nand - by extension - throughout the Galaxy. Yes, I know it sounds\nunlikely...and unfortunately, I'm buggered if I can remember the details!\n\nAl\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] } ] }