{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/whorl/652", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "whorl", "thread": { "id": 652, "subject": "[Blue notes, spoilers, etc.]", "messages": 6, "voices": 4, "first": "1999-10-03T20:28:41+00:00", "last": "1999-10-12T12:50:02+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Andre-Driussi", "address": "mantis at sirius.com" }, "date": "1999-10-03T20:28:41+00:00", "subject": "(whorl) [Blue notes, spoilers, etc.]", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, what a novel!\n\nMy first impressions:\n\nHorn is a Greek hero, mostly Odyesseus. How wonderful! I suppose I might\nhave anticipated this, with all the Greco-Roman grounding of the Long Sun,\nbut that series had a gloss of Father Brown modernism. Visiting the witch;\ninsisting upon hearing the song of the siren; feeding cow blood to \"the\ndead\" for tricks and treats. Taking an eye from an ancient woman, that's\nPerseus.\n\nThe letter of summons to the lander reminds me quite strongly of the Letter\nfrom Prestor John to the Pope. And as in that case, there is much\nspeculation on where the kingdom is located--it has =moved= over the\ncenturies!\n\n(But in the beginning it was thought to be on the . . . Silk Road!)\n\nThe inclusion/intrusion of TBOTLS within the tale reminds me strongly of\nthe second part of DON QUIXOTE, where similar things happen. Rather than\nTHE 1001 ARABIAN NIGHTS, where there is tale-within-tale-within-tale, but\nnobody ever says, hey, I read about you in ARABIAN NIGHTS, or hey, buy my\nbook.\n\nI, too, felt a very Vancean current to ON BLUE'S WATERS; and I, too, felt\nthat it was a different one than the DYING EARTH . . . but what, then?\nPerhaps it is the more \"paranoid\" Vancean science fiction, like the Durdane\ntrilogy (which has secret alien invaders and a bad ride in starship to\nalien world where humans end up as slaves) mixed with a bit of NOPALGARTH\n(where invisible aliens ride humans like psionic vampires, iirc). I think\nit is something more than just the fairytale \"hero sets out on seemingly\ndoomed quest\" thing, which Vance often uses as well; it is something more\nVancean than just fairytale logic or plot.\n\nAh, the Horn who is writing (aka \"the Rajan of Gaon\") is one eyed and white\nhaired, like Odin. But he also has a hurt ankle, is sometimes confused\nwith Silk by others (just because he's wearing the clothes, walking the\nwalk, talking the talk ), often confuses the names of his own twins\n(\"Horn [sic] and Hide\") as well as writing of Horn in the third person, and\neven, in the very end, says that =he= caught the ball (at the beginning of\nTBOTLS)! He =is= Silk, in some as-yet-unspecified way. Not to mention the\nintriguing \"Passilk\"!\n\n(An interesting aside: the twins Hoof and Hide have names that form a\nsemi-canting phrase meaning \"run away and conceal yourself\"!)\n\nMust read again before too long.\n\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Patri10629", "address": "patri10629 at aol.com" }, "date": "1999-10-04T12:43:32+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) [Blue notes, spoilers, etc.]", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In a message dated 10/3/99 11:41:23 PM, mantis at sirius.com writes:\n\n<< \nThe letter of summons to the lander reminds me quite strongly of the Letter\nfrom Prestor John to the Pope. And as in that case, there is much\nspeculation on where the kingdom is located--it has =moved= over the\ncenturies! >>\n\nIt struck me on rereading the opening letter that it is a tissue of lies. But \nwe know that. Imagine it is the words of the Inhumi--throwing their voices, \nas it were, through their human agents-- and it becomes an entirely different\nmessage altogether. Very creepy.\n\nIt also struck me that the initial meeting with the Leaders of the Community \nwas a bit awkward. A clumsy plot device to get the quest rolling. \"We need a \na god--get Silk. We need better seed--back to the whorl. Our businesses are \nfailing, our crops, too--our society is disintegrating, decadent--we need a \nmoral center that everyone can agree on. We need Silk. We need 'fresh \nblood.'\" \n\nBut then there was that unspoken agenda which Nettle intuited--\"They don't \nwant us to write anymore.\" Not sure I get that. We're the Powers that \nbe--secular and sacred: Business, Church, Law (not sure about that \none)--conspiring to consolidate their earthly power by removing their one \ntrue legitimate rival--the man who wrote their history? Whose only authority \nwas the fact that he tried to tell the truth? And had the means to do \nso--paper? Or are one or more of this group Inhumi collaborators?\n\nInteresting that Horn's most valuable commodity--paper--is stolen almost \nimmediately. He must rely on other resources.\n\nHow like TBOTLS--short-sighted agendas which ultimately are futile. As Horn \nsays from the begining--he failed.\n\nSome of many questions. Amazing that this fragment, this first installment \ncan be so powerful and so incomplete.\n\nbest\n\nPatrick O'Leary\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jim Jordan", "address": "jbjordan at gnt.net" }, "date": "1999-10-12T10:54:04+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) [Blue notes, spoilers, etc.]", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 08:43 AM 10/4/99 EDT, Patrick wrote:\n\nBut then there was that unspoken agenda which Nettle intuited--\"They don't \nwant us to write anymore.\" Not sure I get that. We're the Powers that \nbe--secular and sacred: Business, Church, Law (not sure about that \none)--conspiring to consolidate their earthly power by removing their one \ntrue legitimate rival--the man who wrote their history? Whose only authority \nwas the fact that he tried to tell the truth? And had the means to do \nso--paper? Or are one or more of this group Inhumi collaborators?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\tThe book of Silk is the Gospel of Silk. Remember that the narrative\nfollows the gospel narrative rather closely. Silk is the closest to a\nChrist-figure that Wolfe has ever written. Well, did the conservative Jews\nin the book of Acts like it when the apostles preached about Jesus? Did the\nRoman Emperors? No. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Interesting that Horn's most valuable commodity--paper--is stolen almost \nimmediately. He must rely on other resources." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\tYes, and WHO stole it? Surely not the person Horn actually suspected. As\nyou point out, the leaders of the community don't want any more gospels\nfrom Horn.\n\nNutria\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Kevin J. Maroney", "address": "kmaroney at crossover.com" }, "date": "1999-10-12T12:18:02+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) [Blue notes, spoilers, etc.]", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 10:54 AM 10/12/99 -0700, Nutria wrote:\nAt 08:43 AM 10/4/99 EDT, Patrick wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Interesting that Horn's most valuable commodity--paper--is stolen almost \nimmediately. He must rely on other resources." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes, and WHO stole it? Surely not the person Horn actually suspected. \nAs you point out, the leaders of the community don't want any more gospels\nfrom Horn." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think it's necessary to assume that the Council (as we might as\nwell call them) stole Horn's paper to stop him from publishing more copies\nof _The Book of Silk_. Paper is a valuable commodity--Horn is doing quite\nwell for himself--and would be an obvious target for any thief. If they\nwere really interested in supressing Horn, they'd have taken and destroyed\nhis personal copy of _The Book_. \n\nWombat, a.k.a. Kevin Maroney kmaroney at crossover.com\nKitchen Staff Supervisor, New York Review of Science Fiction\nhttp://ebbs.english.vt.edu/olp/nyrsf/nyrsf.html\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jim Jordan", "address": "jbjordan at gnt.net" }, "date": "1999-10-12T11:36:28+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) [Blue notes, spoilers, etc.]", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 12:18 PM 10/12/99 -0400, you wrote:\nI don't think it's necessary to assume that the Council (as we might as\nwell call them) stole Horn's paper to stop him from publishing more copies\nof _The Book of Silk_. Paper is a valuable commodity--Horn is doing quite\nwell for himself--and would be an obvious target for any thief. If they\nwere really interested in supressing Horn, they'd have taken and destroyed\nhis personal copy of _The Book_. \n\nWombat," }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\tWhat I meant was that they did not want ANOTHER book. But you're point is\nwell taken -- and you do have inside knowledge!! So, I'll defer to it. \n\nNutria\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Kevin J. Maroney", "address": "kmaroney at crossover.com" }, "date": "1999-10-12T12:50:02+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) [Blue notes, spoilers, etc.]", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 11:36 AM 10/12/99 -0700, Nutria wrote:\nWhat I meant was that they did not want ANOTHER book. But your point is\nwell taken -- and you do have inside knowledge!! So, I'll defer to it. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't have much inside knowlege--just a couple of spoilers leaked to me\nby David. On this matter, I'm just going by what was printed in _Blue_. \nWombat, a.k.a. Kevin Maroney kmaroney at crossover.com\nKitchen Staff Supervisor, New York Review of Science Fiction\nhttp://ebbs.english.vt.edu/olp/nyrsf/nyrsf.html\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] } ] }