{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/whorl/685", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "whorl", "thread": { "id": 685, "subject": "BLUE spoilers", "messages": 4, "voices": 4, "first": "1999-10-12T14:24:18+00:00", "last": "1999-10-13T12:04:36+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Andre-Driussi", "address": "mantis at sirius.com" }, "date": "1999-10-12T14:24:18+00:00", "subject": "(whorl) BLUE spoilers", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Wombat had the subjective time for the flight of the Whorl but wanted to\nknow what the objective time was.\n\nSubjective time: 332 years, exactly.\nObjective time: 1000 years, roughly (III, 242).\n\nThis ratio (332:1000) makes it look like a velocity of around 95% c. And\nthe target star would seem to be over 900 light years from Urth.\n\nJim Jordan (howdie, stranger!) wondered where Horn might have been infused\nwith Silkiness in OBW.\n\nSeems to me the most likely spot would be that =pit= where he =died=!\nRemember how we all went over the weird details of Silk dying in that pit\nand/or cave-in, then being \"found\" (revived? resurrected?) by an inhumi\n(Q)? The same thing happens here, with many of the same odd details, but\nall sorts of new complications.\n\nAnd iirc it is after the pit-death thing that Horn kills the animal that\nthe others are so impressed by (that is, he might be enhanced at that\npoint).\n\n(Of course, how a hypothetical, blood-borne Silk virus could have gotten\nfrom Q to our new vampire friend is a very puzzling exercise.)\n\nJim Jordan was wondering about the \"timer\" going off, to signal landing.\nRight, that would appear to be the end of Pas's Planned Time (II, 235)\nwhich was about 100 years before the events in TBOTLS. If true, then the\nWhorl had been orbiting the Short Sun for 100 years. And then it seems\nlike Pas was killed because the other gods didn't want to break up their\ncozy little whorl.\n\n(To return to the Wombat section above:) If the Whorl arrived in the target\nsystem on time, 100 years ago, then . . .\n\nSubjective flight time: 232 years\nObjective flight time: 900 years\n\nWhich is a tad faster than the other model, but still under 99% c.\n\n=mantis=\n\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Kevin J. Maroney", "address": "kmaroney at crossover.com" }, "date": "1999-10-12T17:45:57+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) BLUE spoilers", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 02:24 PM 10/12/99 -0700, Mantis wrote:\nWombat had the subjective time for the flight of the Whorl but wanted to\nknow what the objective time was.\n\nSubjective time: 332 years, exactly." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm sure you've said this before, but what's your cite on that?\n\n\nWombat, a.k.a. Kevin Maroney kmaroney at crossover.com\nKitchen Staff Supervisor, New York Review of Science Fiction\nhttp://ebbs.english.vt.edu/olp/nyrsf/nyrsf.html\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jim Jordan", "address": "jbjordan at gnt.net" }, "date": "1999-10-13T10:11:18+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) BLUE spoilers", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 02:24 PM 10/12/99 -0700, Mantoid wrote:\n\nJim Jordan (howdie, stranger!) wondered where Horn might have been infused\nwith Silkiness in OBW.\n\nSeems to me the most likely spot would be that =pit= where he =died=!\nRemember how we all went over the weird details of Silk dying in that pit\nand/or cave-in, then being \"found\" (revived? resurrected?) by an inhumi\n(Q)? The same thing happens here, with many of the same odd details, but\nall sorts of new complications." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\tGood thought. I'm still puzzled at how Horn could have written TBLS\nwithout some kind of help, which is why I suggested a possible earlier info\ndump at Manefraim. But there is more going on here, such as Horn's eventual\nnew body. Additionally, we not only have the death & resuscitation scene in\nthe pit (Biblical imagery, BTW, as with Joseph, Jeremiah, etc.), but\nsomething also is due to happen on Green. We'll have to see if the death on\nGreen is followed by resurrection in this new taller body. Clearly we're\ninto a complicated area that we'll just have to wait to learn more about.\nShuckz." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And iirc it is after the pit-death thing that Horn kills the animal that\nthe others are so impressed by (that is, he might be enhanced at that\npoint).\n\n(Of course, how a hypothetical, blood-borne Silk virus could have gotten\nfrom Q to our new vampire friend is a very puzzling exercise.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\tWhat we need is to appoint someone who is rereading the book to note all\nthe places where Horn is successful or unsuccessful in shooting a\nthreatening animal/person, or spearing a fish. When do these happen? Then\nwe can begin to formulate a hypothesis.\n\tHere's another. Tell me, O Mantis, what you think of this: Horn in Gaon is\ntall. He is a torturer and executioner. He talks about a big long sword\nthat he got at some point. Sound familiar? So, just WHO got dumped into him\nbesides Silk? WHOSE body is this? Hey, I dunno. Whaddaya think?\n\tI'm also thinking that the Distant Possibility I just described was an\nAvatar of the New Sun, and anyone whose personality got dumped into him,\nvia alzabo juice, actually came to life inside of him and accompanied him\nfrom then on as a living personality (unlike what happened to ordinarily\nfolks who ate alzaboized corpses). Our Later Horn seems \"confused\" about\nwho he is, just like my Distant Possibility, who sometimes writes as\nThecla. Sometimes he is Horn, and feels really guilty about his adultery.\nOther times he does not seem to be bothered much by it, which is not a\nSilkian response, but does fit our Distant Possibility.\n\tAt a literary level, and as a possible HINT, I also notice that Later\nHorn, like my Distant Possibility, winds up as a kind of ruler and judge in\na primitive tribe for a long time, before finally leaving.\n\tFynallee, I guess we are \"sure\" that the witchette Merryn is the brother\nof DP, and is it possible that she employs witchly astral powers to project\nDP to the situation in the world of Silk and Horn?\n\tSo, whaddaya think? \n\tThere's another possibility to toy with. If Erebus and Abaia came from\nBlue to Urth, then consider that the alzabo might have come from Green. The\nabilities of the alzabo are much like those of the inhumi, especially the\nability to mimic. A possible variant of the same race of creatures? Maybe\nHorn in Green will encounter an alzabo, and alzaboize some people into\nhimself. Of course, unlike Severian, he'd only get memories, not\nresurrected personalities. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jim Jordan was wondering about the \"timer\" going off, to signal landing.\nRight, that would appear to be the end of Pas's Planned Time (II, 235)\nwhich was about 100 years before the events in TBOTLS. If true, then the\nWhorl had been orbiting the Short Sun for 100 years. And then it seems\nlike Pas was killed because the other gods didn't want to break up their\ncozy little whorl." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\tHmmm. Possibility 1: Whorl arrives in Blue-Green system. Invaded by\ninhumi. Whoa! Surprise! Maybe we'd better keep these people on the Whorl.\nMaybe we other gods need to protect them from the Plan of Pas. In short,\nmaybe our motives are mixed. Remember that Wolfe's characters are never\nwholly evil or wholly good -- they are on a spectrum, with Silk at the\npretty good end and Typhon at the pretty bad end. And some of the gods of\nMainframe seem to love and care for humanity. But then the Whorl starts to\ndie, and the \"loving and protective plan\" of Pas's family becomes\nimpossible to continue...\n\tPossibility 2: The B/G system was not the original goal, but the Whorl was\nstopped in transit by the inhumi. Let say that they drank the blood of the\nWhorl's sailors, and learned how to stop the Whorl. It's been a while since\nI read TBLS, so maybe this is easily disproved. Do we know whether B/G was\nthe original destination? Do we know what happened to the sailors of the\nWhorl? If so, I cannot recall it. Help!\n\nNutria\n\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Alex David Groce", "address": "alex_groce at gs246.sp.cs.cmu.edu" }, "date": "1999-10-13T12:04:36+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) BLUE spoilers", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Another possible motive for delaying the embarkation, even if Blue/Green is\nthe Whorl's destination: by the time of arrival, Pas seems to be communicating\nless and not as \"in control\" as presumably at the start of the voyage. On\nBlue, the gods are even less active than on the Whorl (for obvious reasons),\nbut there are hints of gods arriving on Blue. Perhaps Pas's plan would have\nput him back definitively in control of things and so the other gods delayed\nthe plan for as long as possible (or, more precisely, Echidna delayed as long\nas possible).\n\nNow they are beginning to figure out how to show up on Blue. Indeed, Passilk\nis probably already there, in some form or other. Of course, the references\nto gods dropping down from the Whorl could refer to Horn's Silkized return--\nor Passilkized return. And bearing in mind what Nutria just said, surely\nthe Severian at the end of New Sun is in some ways more of a \"god\" than Pas\n& co.\n\n\n\"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.\" John 8:32" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Alex David Groce (agroce+ at cs.cmu.edu)\nPh.D. Student, Carnegie Mellon University - Computer Science Department\n8112 Wean Hall (412)-268-3066\nhttp://www.cs.cmu.edu/~agroce\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] } ] }