{
  "export": {
    "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/whorl/686",
    "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it.  Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.",
    "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'"
  },
  "archive": "whorl",
  "thread": {
    "id": 686,
    "subject": "Black Hole (New/Short/etc) Sun, etc.",
    "messages": 1,
    "voices": 1,
    "first": "1999-10-12T19:05:44+00:00",
    "last": "1999-10-12T19:05:44+00:00"
  },
  "messages": [
    {
      "message_id": "<whorl-v0010-0102@digest.urth.net>",
      "from": {
        "name": "Alex David Groce",
        "address": "alex_groce at gs246.sp.cs.cmu.edu"
      },
      "date": "1999-10-12T19:05:44+00:00",
      "subject": "Re: (whorl) Black Hole (New/Short/etc) Sun, etc.",
      "in_reply_to": null,
      "reply_link": null,
      "blocks": [
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "Various random points:\n\n(1)  On the Black Hole engulfing history--it seems to me that the problem with\nAsimov's Foundation/Robot mess was that it completely undermined the original\nseries--Asimov was going for the ultimate \"scientific\" approach to society,\nplanning that really works.  And the first three Foundation books were clever\nplays on how sharp Hari Seldon's plan was and how it works even when it looks\nlike its failing, etc.  Then the tie-in books worked on showing how Seldon's\nplan only worked because of psionic New Age dictators in the 2nd foundation who\nturned out to be (behind curtain #3) the puppets of All-Powerful Mind-Reading\nRobot Daneel.  In other words, the Decline and Fall (with science saving the\nday via REAL social science) becomes a fantasy of history with Secret Masters\nbehind Secret Masters.  The thematic nicety of the first series is ruined.\n\nWolfe, on the other hand, seems to me to (despite learning some things, one\nwould guess, about writing and the world) fit together thematically from his\nearliest great works to his latest--in the sense that he, like Bach, revisits \nhis central themes and elaborates on them without undermining earlier works--\nit seems to me this unity of vision is a large part of what makes Wolfe not\njust a good writer but a genuine artistic genius on the order of a Proust or\nEliot (there's another side, talent, which is why even though Lovecraft has\nthe repeated elaboration of constant, even obsessive themes, he's enjoyable\nbut still a bit of a hack).  Typhon having started the Whorl on its journey\nin no way undermines what we understand about Typhon, but enlarges our vision\nof the products of his megalomania (and makes it more complex by reminding us\nthat a monster might have a \"family\" that's a mix of decency and even worse\nmonstrosity).  The Christic aspects of Silk do not undermine similar aspects\nin Severian--they are different visions of human servants of the \nIncreate/Outsider/God.  That the central figure of NEW SUN is to be somehow\nworked into Short Sun doesn't suggest to me that Severian is likely to be\ncheaply used to \"tie things together\"--rather that, while NEW SUN\n(and LONG SUN) are complete and beautiful in themselves, they are also, after\nthis, to be the equivalent of the individual fugues in \"The Art of the Fugue\"--\nmade part of a whole, and thus capable of enriching each other immensely.\n\nI also suspect that Wolfe will approach it in such a way as to make SHORT SUN\ncomprehensible, if somewhat less so than the other two stories, on its own,\nwithout resorting (as Asimov did) to ill-disguised info-dumps.\n\n(2)  If the Whorl has been traveling for 1000 years, then it might somehow\nhave been turned around.  However, the Neighbors (ah, yes, Nutria--they \"drove\"\nthe inhumi off with goodness--seems so clear once you see it) are an odd\nresult for post New-Sun.  Even though I offered it earlier, I'll be surprised\nif Blue = Urth (or Green = Moon).  Anyway, does anyone say \"Green is massively\nsmaller than Blue?\"\n\n(3)  Typhon's culture paordies (whether translated or not) aren't just Evil\nOverlord fun--Typhon's a fairly practical evil overlord (and, although wicked\nas the day is long, not, to all apperances, one with an unusually large \nappetite for sadism as opposed to megalomania).  If you want to prevent cargo\nfrom uniting, it's hard to find a better model from Urth(Earth) than low\ntechnology cultures with very different religions and customs and systems of\ngovernment (or high technology ones, for that matter, but the way we got that\nhigh technology has had the effect of lessening some of those differences--for\ngood and ill).  And, since Typhon probably hasn't the time to make up a lot\nof cultures (or the inclination) he just grabs some handy ones and miniaturizes\nthem.  Instant Babel effect!  Given Typhon's global dominion, he can even grab\npeople from relevant groups to avoid wasting time with genetic tinkering, and\njust brainwash them into forgetting their old homes.\n\n\n\"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.\" John 8:32"
        },
        {
          "kind": "sig",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "Alex David Groce (agroce+ at cs.cmu.edu)\nPh.D. Student, Carnegie Mellon University - Computer Science Department\n8112 Wean Hall (412)-268-3066\nhttp://www.cs.cmu.edu/~agroce\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun."
        }
      ]
    }
  ]
}