{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/whorl/695", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "whorl", "thread": { "id": 695, "subject": "Digest whorl.v010.n035", "messages": 3, "voices": 3, "first": "1999-10-16T12:35:54+00:00", "last": "1999-10-18T08:23:50+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Alice Turner", "address": "akt at attglobal.net" }, "date": "1999-10-16T12:35:54+00:00", "subject": "(whorl) Re: Digest whorl.v010.n035", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Ah, but as someone actually going through the conversion process right\nnow,\nI think formal Catholic position is \"sure the gospels were written later,\nunder\ndifficult circumstances, etc.\" but that, of course, they overcame this by\naid\nof the Holy Spirit." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes, you and I and Wolfe agree, and Alga (almost certainly) doesn't. My\nonly point was that we have to consider what Wolfe had in mind. [snip]" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, Ratty, you're wrong, I do agree. My very point was that Horn, exactly\nlike Mathew (the most egregious of the gospeleers, IMO--and I will happily\ncite how), when he wasn't present at an event, made free to invent, but with\nthe sincerity of love and the drive of evangelism, which is, I suppose, what\nAlex means by the Holy Spirit. That, however, doesn't quite make it fact.\n\nAlex, I am interested in what \"going through the conversion process\" means.\nIf you think that is off-topic, would you please email me about it? TIA.\n(The fact that I am a heathen doesn't make me theologically rude, except to\nthe Rat, who likes it.)\n\n-alga\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Alex David Groce", "address": "alex_groce at gs246.sp.cs.cmu.edu" }, "date": "1999-10-17T10:51:03+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) Re: Digest whorl.v010.n035", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, Ratty, you're wrong, I do agree. My very point was that Horn, exactly\nlike Mathew (the most egregious of the gospeleers, IMO--and I will happily\ncite how), when he wasn't present at an event, made free to invent, but with\nthe sincerity of love and the drive of evangelism, which is, I suppose, what\nAlex means by the Holy Spirit. That, however, doesn't quite make it fact." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ah, but Rat & I would attribute to the Holy Spirit the result that Matthew\nnever actually _gets it wrong_--contradictions are only apparent, resulting\nfrom reading things in the wrong sense. How exactly this applies to things\nlike \"who WAS the high priest at time X?\" and such I forget at the moment and\nis probably out of the list's scope, anyway.\n\nWhich is highly relevant to OBW/The Book of Silk if we (as I would assume we\nall do) think Horn & Nettle writing are meant to be analogous to writing a\nGospel. In other words, sure Horn wanted to get it right out of \"love and the\ndrive of evangelism\"--but if you take the model Wolfe's probably using, he\nreally DID get it right. Which, as far as I know, just the desire doesn't\nguarantee. That's where we seem to differ. Given Wolfe's penchant for \nhaving \"secular\" things act suspiciously as if at the behest of the Outsider,\nthis strongly suggests Horn had help (from Mainframe or something) to \nguarantee he got it right. On the other hand, since in Long Sun the Outsider\ndoes directly Enlighten Silk it can't be ruled out that Horn really does have\ndirect supernatural aid in writing the Book of Silk.\n\n\n\"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.\" John 8:32" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Alex David Groce (agroce+ at cs.cmu.edu)\nPh.D. Student, Carnegie Mellon University - Computer Science Department\n8112 Wean Hall (412)-268-3066\nhttp://www.cs.cmu.edu/~agroce\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Straight", "address": "straight at email.unc.edu" }, "date": "1999-10-18T08:23:50+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) Re: Digest whorl.v010.n035", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sun, 17 Oct 1999, Alex David Groce wrote:\nWhich is highly relevant to OBW/The Book of Silk if we (as I would assume we\nall do) think Horn & Nettle writing are meant to be analogous to writing a\nGospel. In other words, sure Horn wanted to get it right out of \"love and the\ndrive of evangelism\"--but if you take the model Wolfe's probably using, he\nreally DID get it right. Which, as far as I know, just the desire doesn't\nguarantee. That's where we seem to differ. Given Wolfe's penchant for \nhaving \"secular\" things act suspiciously as if at the behest of the Outsider,\nthis strongly suggests Horn had help (from Mainframe or something) to \nguarantee he got it right. On the other hand, since in Long Sun the Outsider\ndoes directly Enlighten Silk it can't be ruled out that Horn really does have\ndirect supernatural aid in writing the Book of Silk." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "On the other hand, I think it's still possible for a skeptic to read the\nLong Sun books and side with Dr. Crane on the question of Silk's\nenlightenment. For that reason, I think it strengthens the books to leave\nopen the question of whether Horn is embellishing or not. It makes for a\nstronger parallel with the Gospels. As this list illustrates it's\npossible for smart people to disagree about whether Matthew fudged any of\nthe details or not. \n\nI would prefer to assess the Book of Silk based on what we learn of the\ncharacter of Horn and Nettle than to learn that Mainframe was the de facto\nomnicient narrator. How much fun is a Wolfe story where you know you can\ntrust the narrator? \n\n-Rostrum\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] } ] }