{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/whorl/696", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "whorl", "thread": { "id": 696, "subject": "Digest whorl.v010.n036", "messages": 2, "voices": 2, "first": "1999-10-17T15:58:48+00:00", "last": "1999-10-17T16:31:02+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Alice Turner", "address": "akt at attglobal.net" }, "date": "1999-10-17T15:58:48+00:00", "subject": "(whorl) Re: Digest whorl.v010.n036", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Well, Ratty, you're wrong, I do agree. My very point was that Horn,\nexactly\nlike Mathew (the most egregious of the gospeleers, IMO--and I will\nhappily\ncite how), when he wasn't present at an event, made free to invent, but\nwith\nthe sincerity of love and the drive of evangelism, which is, I suppose,\nwhat\nAlex means by the Holy Spirit. That, however, doesn't quite make it fact." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ah, but Rat & I would attribute to the Holy Spirit the result that Matthew\nnever actually _gets it wrong_--contradictions are only apparent,\nresulting\nfrom reading things in the wrong sense. How exactly this applies to\nthings\nlike \"who WAS the high priest at time X?\" and such I forget at the moment\nand\nis probably out of the list's scope, anyway." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "How do you know that? I think Matthew gets it very wrong, and on purpose. I\nthink he totally invents the ties to Zoroastrianism (the Magi) and Osiris\n(the flight to Egypt) for the very understandable reason that he wants to\nemphasize the afterlife (there being no real Jewish connection, and that of\nthe Persians and the Egyptians being strong and powerful). There is\nabsolutely no evidence for Herod's slaughter of baby boys. Matthew is a\nfabulator, much like Wolfe. The other gospeleers are quite different." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Which is highly relevant to OBW/The Book of Silk if we (as I would assume\nwe\nall do) think Horn & Nettle writing are meant to be analogous to writing a\nGospel. In other words, sure Horn wanted to get it right out of \"love and\nthe\ndrive of evangelism\"--but if you take the model Wolfe's probably using, he\nreally DID get it right. Which, as far as I know, just the desire doesn't\nguarantee. That's where we seem to differ. Given Wolfe's penchant for\nhaving \"secular\" things act suspiciously as if at the behest of the\nOutsider,\nthis strongly suggests Horn had help (from Mainframe or something) to\nguarantee he got it right. On the other hand, since in Long Sun the\nOutsider\ndoes directly Enlighten Silk it can't be ruled out that Horn really does\nhave\ndirect supernatural aid in writing the Book of Silk." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I do *not* think that Horn had help from Mainframe. Horn is clearly, at\nfirst anyway, before \"merging,\" a \"frail vessel.\" The analogy is with Paul,\nabout whom Christian factions are still fighting. I must say, I think the\ncomputer model is downright brilliant, especially considering Wolfe's age;\nnot to be unPC, but people over 60 have a hard time with computers,\ngenerally.\n\n-alga\n\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Alex David Groce", "address": "alex_groce at gs246.sp.cs.cmu.edu" }, "date": "1999-10-17T16:31:02+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) Re: Digest whorl.v010.n036", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "How do you know that? I think Matthew gets it very wrong, and on purpose. I\nthink he totally invents the ties to Zoroastrianism (the Magi) and Osiris\n(the flight to Egypt) for the very understandable reason that he wants to\nemphasize the afterlife (there being no real Jewish connection, and that of\nthe Persians and the Egyptians being strong and powerful). There is\nabsolutely no evidence for Herod's slaughter of baby boys. Matthew is a\nfabulator, much like Wolfe. The other gospeleers are quite different." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What Nutria and I are saying is that whatever the truth value of \"Matthew\ninvented some stuff\" is, it's unlikely that WOLFE thinks he did, which is an\nargument for giving THE BOOK OF THE LONG SUN a huge benefit of the doubt as to\nwhether it matches up with the \"real\" events (never mind the fact that we're \nall discussing events that, of course, are purely fictional--the question is\nif the fiction is that \"The Book of Silk\" tells what really happened to Silk).\nWhich also brings in the possible notion of other actors than Horn and Nettle\nin the composition of \"The Book of Silk,\" acting in a Holy Spirit-type role,\nalthough that's more debateable. Much as Wolfe plays with -coy- narrators who\ndon't tell everything that's going on, I'd be surprised if it turns out that\n\"The Book of Silk's\" version of events doesn't actually match up with what \npeople say in Short Sun--meanings may change, but the events I'll bet stay the\nsame.\n\nHmm... The Paul analogy might be really fruitful--isn't Paul's illness \nmentioned in Galatians sometimes supposed to have been a vision problem or\neven the _loss of an eye_?\n\n\n\n\"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.\" John 8:32" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Alex David Groce (agroce+ at cs.cmu.edu)\nPh.D. Student, Carnegie Mellon University - Computer Science Department\n8112 Wean Hall (412)-268-3066\nhttp://www.cs.cmu.edu/~agroce\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] } ] }