{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/whorl/7", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "whorl", "thread": { "id": 7, "subject": "Digest whorl.v001.n003", "messages": 3, "voices": 2, "first": "1996-12-06T13:57:10+00:00", "last": "1996-12-18T20:20:49+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Peter Cash", "address": "cash at convex.convex.com" }, "date": "1996-12-06T14:22:53+00:00", "subject": "(whorl) Re: Digest whorl.v001.n003", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I really don't feel that I completely understand what happened on top\nof the airship. Why did Mucor possess Horn (that _is_ what happened,\nright?)? Did Mucor \"push\" Horn off, or did she have nothing to do with\nit? Was Silk going to jump?\n\nThroughout the scene on top of the airship, I get a feeling of building\nmenace. You _know_ something bad is going to happen, but it's not clear\nwhy--and when it happens, it's not clear what happened.\n\nCan anybody help me understand this better?\n\nPeter\n\nQuestions or problems to whorl-owner at lists.best.com" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Peter Cash", "address": "cash at convex.convex.com" }, "date": "1996-12-06T13:57:10+00:00", "subject": "(whorl) Re: Digest whorl.v001.n003", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jim Jordan wisely wrote:\nSubject:\nDate: Tue, 03 Dec 1996 23:50:49 -0600" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Quetzal - Quetzalcoatl was the mythical \"white man\" who was expected to\narrive among the Aztecs and change things forever. The Mayans called him\nCulculcan, as I recall. \"Quetzalcoatl\" means \"feathered serpent.\" Perhaps a\ndragon/cherubim association. Quetzal knows his Bible (the pre-Bible of the\nUrth-universe) and corrects someone in \"Exodus\" who ascribes a Biblical\nsaying to Pas.\nSo Quetzal is pretty ambiguous. Perhaps a \"converted\" vampire who rejects\nhuman blood for animal blood?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I would agree with \"ambiguous\". He is clearly presented as a \"good guy\"\nin the \nnarrative; we are supposed to like him. I don't think that this means he\nis \nnecessarily good, however. Remember what happened to the Aztecs when\ntheir \nQuetzalcoatl came--in the shape of Cortez. As for him knowing\nscripture--\nremember that \"Even the demons believe, and shudder\" (James 2:19)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Pas's motivation - Why would a horrible tyrant like Typhon build a huge\nspaceship and send away all his slaves, leaving him alone? That does not\nmake a lot of sense -- unless somehow the entire project was masterminded\nby Quetzal as a way to get home? Perhaps Quetzal had the power to hypnotize\nTyphon somehow. The Severian Quintet shows lots of aliens present on Urth." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Perhaps he was bringing a food supply home. There are indications that\nQuetzal \nhas been on board since the beginning..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Fifth Head of Cerberus - First, there is no doubt that a shapeshifter takes\nthe place of the scientist in the third part of the book. Second, unless\nWolfe has indicated something, I would not take these novellae as in the\nsame universe as Urth. They seem to be set in the future of our own\noscillation. Is there some more concrete reason to associate Ste. Anne and\nSte. Claire with Green and Blue?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Aren't the two described as green and blue planets in close proximity? I \nthough they were, but upon searching I couldn't find the reference in\nFifth \nHead. I was really struck by the parallells when I finished Exodus--\"Oh\nno,\nthey've gone _there_!\" I had assumed that the passengers of the Whorl\nwere the\nearlier settlers who were assimilated by the shapeshifters. I agree that\nthere\nare some problems if you take the description of the culture on the two\nplanets\nat face value--mention of the French colonists, for example, doesn't\nseem to\nbelong in the same timeline as Pas. But what if all the colonists were\nin fact\nshape-shifters, and their \"human\" culture was built only on a sketchy\nknowledge\nof Earth history?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " Re-reading the last two chapters of volume three of the Book of the Long\nSun, in preparation for volume four, I suddenly realized that Father Silk\nis not only a good pastor, but a Christ figure in the sense of acting out\nthe events in Jesus' life. Wolfe would say a \"Christian figure,\" since we\nare all to live in Christ and be Christlike; but here, as in the Book of\nActs and in Cordwainer Smith's \"Scanners Live in Vain,\" there is an\nallegorical presentation of this matter.\n The reader should bear in mind that Wolfe is a devout, practising Roman\nCatholic strongly influenced by G.K. Chesterton, and that a number of his\nother works are Christian allegories." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I would agree that there are Christ-like elements in Silk--just how far\nthe comparison\ngoes is a matter of conjecture." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " Consider: (Spoiler Warning: Numbers 1-17 come from the first three volumes\nonly; after that you are at risk.)\n\n 1. Silk's \"enlightenment\" and call by the Outsider // Jesus' baptism. Some\nhave thought that this might merely be a downloading of information from\nMainframe, but Mainframe is not the Outsider, and it becomes clearer and\nclearer that the Outsider is the God of the Bible." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think so too. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " 2. The Crow (Night Chough) who accompanies Silk // the Holy Spirit Dove\nwho accompanies Jesus." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The dove only comes in at Jesus' baptism--it doesn't follow him around,\ntalking up\na storm. Odin, on the other hand, walked around with two crows--Thought\nand Memory.\nWhat's the significance of the fact that the night chough was bought as\na \npagan sacrifice?\n...\ngood points deleted\n..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " 6. Silk dies and is buried at the end of volume 3, and then is raised to\nlife again by the Outsider // Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't recall this. How does Silk die, and how is he resurrected?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " 7. Silk leads the Whorl's inhabitants to a new land // Jesus and the\nNew Creation." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Does Silk do this? Is this what he is supposed to do? First of all,\nit's not clear\nto me that Silk was in any way necessary to the landers' departure from\nthe Whorl--\nthe \"Plan of Pas\" could have been brought to fruition without Silk. I\ndon't think \nSilk has anything to do with this plan--remember that the Plan is that\nof Pas, the\nevil and pagan god, and not the Outsider. As far as I can tell, the Plan\nis to\nprovide goodies for the vampyric shape-shifters of Green to munch on.\n\nI think that the ending is actually tragic, inasmuch as Silk has\nmisunderstood his\nCalling from the beginning, and never quite \"got\" it--at least insofar\nas we are\ntold. Silk's calling (by the Outsider) isn't to lead his people to the\nnew worlds--\nwhich are populated by devils--but to _save_ them. Silk thinks he's\nsupposed to \n\"save\" his Manteion--but he never understands what salvation _is_. The\nkind of \nsalvation the Outsider has in mind is salvation from sin, from the \"evil\nof the world\"\nthat Silk ruminates on with Horn on top of the airship.\n\n..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " 11. Big, lumbering, good-hearted Auk is Silk's Peter." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, there are similarities. But Auk was a violent thief, whereas Peter\nwas a\nfisherman.\n\n..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " 16. We know from the Severian Quintet that two-headed Pas is the wicked\nand titanic Typhon // the devil. He rules the whorl, and makes himself god\nthere (Pas means \"all\"). Clearly, leaving the whorl and moving to a planet\nwill mean deliverance from this Luciferian Overlord." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ah, but does it? Or does it mean the completion of his diabolical Plan?\n..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " 19. Silk travels to the angelic realm of the fliers. Compare ascension of\nJesus." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Again, I see this as more ambiguous than you do. Mainframe is more of a\nparody of\nheaven than its symbolic representation. What do you make of Silk's\ndesire to speak\nwith his father there, and his inability to do so? Who does Silk think\nhis father\nis, I wonder? Given his Virgin Birth, and given that the source of\nimplantable\nembryos must be high-tech, it seems to me that he must have come from\nMainframe. Does\nhe think that Mainframe _is_ his father? Again, I'm not sure whether to\nsee this\nas Christ symbolism or parody." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " 20. Silk's personality joins Pas and his lover, replacing Pas's dead head,\nand thus is \"seated at the right hand of the Father.\" Compare Jesus's\nenthronement with Father and Spirit at His ascension. The \"Pas\" in\nMainframe is not quite the same as Typhon, in this regard. He is a kind of\n\"Good Lucifer.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I remember Kypris (Aphrodite) making the offer to Silk; I don't recall\nthat he\naccepted it. And I don't share your view of the Mainframe Pas as a \"good\nLucifer\".\nBeing seated at the right shoulder of _this_ god strikes me as eminently\nundesirable." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " 21. Hyacinth's gross waywardness and infidelity are pictures of the\nsinfulness of Christ's Church-Bride. Wolfe makes sure we are both horrified\nand forgiving of her sins." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't know about this; I'm not in the least inclined to forgive\nHyacinth's final \nsin, which is to run out on Silk. But then again, I don't really know\nwhat to make\nof this action; Wolfe has been far too elliptical here. Given my\nnegative view of\nthe \"new worlds\", she may have been doing Silk a favor. But then what\nhappens to \nSilk? \n\nIn the end, I can't help but see in Hyacinth's action the re-emergence\nof a pattern \nthat has been characteristic of her as long as she's lived: she takes\nadvantage \nof lovers, then leaves them when she perceives that her advantage lies\nelsewhere. \nConsider that she's been the \"special friend\" of, at one time, Oosik,\nBlood, and \nthe guardsman they meet just before they go underground. Remember how\nSilk remarks\nthat while she must have meant a great deal to the young officer, he\nmeant nothing\nto her? Remember that Hyacinth is a hooker--and the Hooker with a Heart\nof Gold\nis really too good to be true. \n\nIt may be that Silk understands all this, and loves her anyway (he makes\nsome\nremarks to this effect after discussing Hyacinth's escapades with the\nTrivigaunty\ngeneral). But that doesn't make me like Hyacinth more." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " 22. When Silk returns to Viron, it is armageddon, the end of the world\nbattle. Compare the prophecies of Christ's return." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Maybe it's armageddon, maybe it's just plain confusion. I can't tell\nwhat's going\non, and it seems pretty pointless." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " 24. At the last moment, Silk's own wayward bride, Hyacinth, prefers this\nworld to the world to come, and Silk rushes forth to save her at all costs.\nA moving finale, and a picture once again of the abiding sinfulness of the\nBride of Christ." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not exactly my reaction, as you can tell..." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~\n Die Welt ist alles, was Zerfall ist. \n (apologies to Ludwig Wittgenstein) \n~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~\n\nQuestions or problems to whorl-owner at lists.best.com" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jim Jordan", "address": "jbjordan at gnt.net" }, "date": "1996-12-18T20:20:49+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) Re: Digest whorl.v001.n003", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 01:57 PM 12/6/96 -0600, Peter Cash wrote:\n\nJim Jordan wisely wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Quetzal - Quetzalcoatl was the mythical \"white man\" who was expected to\narrive among the Aztecs and change things forever. The Mayans called him\nCulculcan, as I recall. \"Quetzalcoatl\" means \"feathered serpent.\" Perhaps a\ndragon/cherubim association. Quetzal knows his Bible (the pre-Bible of the\nUrth-universe) and corrects someone in \"Exodus\" who ascribes a Biblical\nsaying to Pas.\nSo Quetzal is pretty ambiguous. Perhaps a \"converted\" vampire who rejects\nhuman blood for animal blood?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I would agree with \"ambiguous\". He is clearly presented as a \"good guy\"\nin the \nnarrative; we are supposed to like him. I don't think that this means he\nis \nnecessarily good, however. Remember what happened to the Aztecs when\ntheir \nQuetzalcoatl came--in the shape of Cortez. As for him knowing\nscripture--\nremember that \"Even the demons believe, and shudder\" (James 2:19)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\tPoint taken." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Pas's motivation - Why would a horrible tyrant like Typhon build a huge\nspaceship and send away all his slaves, leaving him alone? That does not\nmake a lot of sense -- unless somehow the entire project was masterminded\nby Quetzal as a way to get home? Perhaps Quetzal had the power to hypnotize\nTyphon somehow. The Severian Quintet shows lots of aliens present on Urth." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Perhaps he was bringing a food supply home. There are indications that\nQuetzal \nhas been on board since the beginning..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\tAgain, good point." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Fifth Head of Cerberus - First, there is no doubt that a shapeshifter takes\nthe place of the scientist in the third part of the book. Second, unless\nWolfe has indicated something, I would not take these novellae as in the\nsame universe as Urth. They seem to be set in the future of our own\noscillation. Is there some more concrete reason to associate Ste. Anne and\nSte. Claire with Green and Blue?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Aren't the two described as green and blue planets in close proximity? I \nthough they were, but upon searching I couldn't find the reference in\nFifth \nHead. I was really struck by the parallells when I finished Exodus--\"Oh\nno,\nthey've gone _there_!\" I had assumed that the passengers of the Whorl\nwere the\nearlier settlers who were assimilated by the shapeshifters. I agree that\nthere\nare some problems if you take the description of the culture on the two\nplanets\nat face value--mention of the French colonists, for example, doesn't\nseem to\nbelong in the same timeline as Pas. But what if all the colonists were\nin fact\nshape-shifters, and their \"human\" culture was built only on a sketchy\nknowledge\nof Earth history?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\tThat would not seem to work with \"Fifth Head,\" which depends on a contrast\nbetween shape-shifters, true humans, and clones. \n\tMy own thought would be that IF there be any connection, it is just that\nin the Urth universe there are also a pair of planets corresponding to\nthose in \"Fifth Head,\" but which were not settled as in \"Fifth Head.\" I\nimagine the next book in the series will settle this one for us.\n\n\nsnip" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " 2. The Crow (Night Chough) who accompanies Silk // the Holy\nSpirit Dove\nwho accompanies Jesus." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The dove only comes in at Jesus' baptism--it doesn't follow him around,\ntalking up\na storm. Odin, on the other hand, walked around with two crows--Thought\nand Memory.\nWhat's the significance of the fact that the night chough was bought as\na \npagan sacrifice?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\tProbably more of Wolfe's ambiguity and myth-mixing. In the Severian\nQuintet, Severian is both a Christ (=Christian) figure and an Apollo figure." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " 6. Silk dies and is buried at the end of volume 3, and then is\nraised to\nlife again by the Outsider // Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't recall this. How does Silk die, and how is he resurrected?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\tChapter 9. Hardcover pp. 321ff. He is covered by dirt (dead and buried),\nand his soul departs to visit his mothers and fathers (both physical and\nadopted). It is clear from the ensuing descriptions that Silk was covered\nfor quite some time, and considered dead. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " 7. Silk leads the Whorl's inhabitants to a new land // Jesus and\nthe\nNew Creation." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Does Silk do this? Is this what he is supposed to do? First of all,\nit's not clear\nto me that Silk was in any way necessary to the landers' departure from\nthe Whorl--\nthe \"Plan of Pas\" could have been brought to fruition without Silk. I\ndon't think \nSilk has anything to do with this plan--remember that the Plan is that\nof Pas, the\nevil and pagan god, and not the Outsider. As far as I can tell, the Plan\nis to\nprovide goodies for the vampyric shape-shifters of Green to munch on.\n\nI think that the ending is actually tragic, inasmuch as Silk has\nmisunderstood his\nCalling from the beginning, and never quite \"got\" it--at least insofar\nas we are\ntold. Silk's calling (by the Outsider) isn't to lead his people to the\nnew worlds--\nwhich are populated by devils--but to _save_ them. Silk thinks he's\nsupposed to \n\"save\" his Manteion--but he never understands what salvation _is_. The\nkind of \nsalvation the Outsider has in mind is salvation from sin, from the \"evil\nof the world\"\nthat Silk ruminates on with Horn on top of the airship." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\tYou may be right, but I don't think so at this point. I asked Wolfe about\nsalvation once, and he commented that Jesus fed people, and that people\nneed food and a place to live before they can do much else. Thus, Severian\n\"saves\" Urth by providing a new sun, and Silk \"saves\" his church by getting\nthem out of the ship and to a planet. The Increate/Outsider wants this\nsalvation as well, and may USE Pas and others for His ends (for, as Wolfe\nsays elsewhere, they are His servants, too, though they don't know it). \n\tSo I don't see the end as tragic, though it is only a partial salvation,\nas you note." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " 11. Big, lumbering, good-hearted Auk is Silk's Peter." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes, there are similarities. But Auk was a violent thief, whereas Peter\nwas a\nfisherman." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\tYes. Wolfe wants us to see those who are saved as having been sinners\nfirst, and thus adds this feature to his Peter." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " 16. We know from the Severian Quintet that two-headed Pas is the\nwicked\nand titanic Typhon // the devil. He rules the whorl, and makes himself god\nthere (Pas means \"all\"). Clearly, leaving the whorl and moving to a planet\nwill mean deliverance from this Luciferian Overlord." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ah, but does it? Or does it mean the completion of his diabolical Plan?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\tHmmm. Good question." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " 19. Silk travels to the angelic realm of the fliers. Compare\nascension of\nJesus." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Again, I see this as more ambiguous than you do. Mainframe is more of a\nparody of\nheaven than its symbolic representation. What do you make of Silk's\ndesire to speak\nwith his father there, and his inability to do so? Who does Silk think\nhis father\nis, I wonder? Given his Virgin Birth, and given that the source of\nimplantable\nembryos must be high-tech, it seems to me that he must have come from\nMainframe. Does\nhe think that Mainframe _is_ his father? Again, I'm not sure whether to\nsee this\nas Christ symbolism or parody." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\tIt is probably both. \n\tBTW, Silk REJECTS the offer of a visit from his parents (p. 348), right?\nAnd Silk knows both his sets of parents, as I pointed out above." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " 20. Silk's personality joins Pas and his lover, replacing Pas's\ndead head,\nand thus is \"seated at the right hand of the Father.\" Compare Jesus's\nenthronement with Father and Spirit at His ascension. The \"Pas\" in\nMainframe is not quite the same as Typhon, in this regard. He is a kind of\n\"Good Lucifer.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I remember Kypris (Aphrodite) making the offer to Silk; I don't recall\nthat he\naccepted it. And I don't share your view of the Mainframe Pas as a \"good\nLucifer\".\nBeing seated at the right shoulder of _this_ god strikes me as eminently\nundesirable." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\tIt is true that we are not shown his accepting the offer. But there was\nsomething that made me think he too her up on it. I don't have time to\nreread the remaining 50 pages of the book to find it. \n\tAnyway, the offer itself carries the same symbolic-parodic weight.\n\tPerhaps it is a temptation: to join an anti-trinity?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " 21. Hyacinth's gross waywardness and infidelity are pictures of the\nsinfulness of Christ's Church-Bride. Wolfe makes sure we are both horrified\nand forgiving of her sins." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't know about this; I'm not in the least inclined to forgive\nHyacinth's final \nsin, which is to run out on Silk. But then again, I don't really know\nwhat to make\nof this action; Wolfe has been far too elliptical here. Given my\nnegative view of\nthe \"new worlds\", she may have been doing Silk a favor. But then what\nhappens to \nSilk? \n\nIn the end, I can't help but see in Hyacinth's action the re-emergence\nof a pattern \nthat has been characteristic of her as long as she's lived: she takes\nadvantage \nof lovers, then leaves them when she perceives that her advantage lies\nelsewhere. \nConsider that she's been the \"special friend\" of, at one time, Oosik,\nBlood, and \nthe guardsman they meet just before they go underground. Remember how\nSilk remarks\nthat while she must have meant a great deal to the young officer, he\nmeant nothing\nto her? Remember that Hyacinth is a hooker--and the Hooker with a Heart\nof Gold\nis really too good to be true. \n\nIt may be that Silk understands all this, and loves her anyway (he makes\nsome\nremarks to this effect after discussing Hyacinth's escapades with the\nTrivigaunty\ngeneral). But that doesn't make me like Hyacinth more." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\tI don't think we are supposed to like Hyacinth. People are corrupt, more\nthan they realize; right? Christ's Bride often (usually?) acts like a\nwhore, acts like she did before He saved and married her. But He loves her\nanyway. I think that is the point. \n\tI think Silk's running after Hyacinth is the Good Shepherd leaving the 99\nand seeking the one sheep who is lost. Remember that Wolfe likes the\nparables a lot, as we see in \"The Detective of Dreams.\"\n\n\tI enjoyed your interaction. Do you have any replies to mine?\n\nJim Jordan\n\n\nQuestions or problems to whorl-owner at lists.best.com" } ] } ] }