{
  "export": {
    "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/whorl/73",
    "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it.  Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.",
    "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'"
  },
  "archive": "whorl",
  "thread": {
    "id": 73,
    "subject": "Timeline << with New Sun, Urth of the New Sun spoilers >>",
    "messages": 1,
    "voices": 1,
    "first": "1997-02-05T10:38:43+00:00",
    "last": "1997-02-05T10:38:43+00:00"
  },
  "messages": [
    {
      "message_id": "<whorl-v0002-0115@digest.urth.net>",
      "from": {
        "name": "David_Lebling",
        "address": "david_lebling at avid.com"
      },
      "date": "1997-02-05T10:38:43+00:00",
      "subject": "(whorl) Timeline << with New Sun, Urth of the New Sun spoilers >>",
      "in_reply_to": null,
      "reply_link": null,
      "blocks": [
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "<< New Sun, Urth of the New Sun Spoilers ahead >>\n\nI'd like to raise an issue that has actually troubled me ever since _The\nUrth of the New Sun_ was published, which is the timing of Typhon's\nreign.\n\nIt seems pretty clear from _Urth_ that Typhon reigned in\n\"near-historical\" times vis a vis Severian.  I believe mantis has pegged\nit as about 1000 years pre-Severian.  (I'm not sure of the source for\nthis number, but from _some_ internal evidence it feels right).\n\nHowever, and this is a problem with _Urth_ that I've raised before,\nthere just doesn't seem to be enough time between this theory of\nTyphon's regnal dates and Severian's reign.  For example, we are shown\nthe construction of Typhon's mountain statue, and it is explicitly\nstated that it's the first one -- the rest of the range is uncarved.\nThere just doesn't seem to be enough tech and enough time to carve the\nAndes even if every autarch wants this form of immortality. There is\nalso a strong implication in _New Sun_ that Typhon rules many planets\n(he offers Urth to Severian), and presumably has a reasonably expedient\nway to travel between them.  It seems unlikely from his description that\nhe uses a ship like _Tzadkiel_.\n\nIn _The Book of the New Sun_, Typhon expounds at length about his\nrationale for getting his head transplanted onto Piaton's body.  It\nisn't stated explicitly but seems pretty clear that he is an old man\nwhen this operation is performed.  (Am I correct that one of Pas's heads\nis referred to as \"old\" in _Long Sun_?)  He also tells Severian that\nthis is new technology, developed at his command for the specific\npurpose of prolonging his life.\n\nThis is all well and good, if a little troubling.  However, it gets much\nworse in _Long Sun_.\n\nFirst, there is the problem of Pas's sprats.  The oldest appears to have\nbeen about twenty or so when stored in Mainframe. This isn't too bad. \nWe can assume he sired them (and they are all Echidna's -- this is\nexplicit) before his transplant, or even assume that a technology that\ncan transplant a head can handle a few testicles with no trouble.\n\nSecond, we are told that Pas built his empire in his own lifetime,\n\"sweeping across the whorl [meaning Urth].\"  This doesn't leave much\nroom for the interstellar empire implied in _New Sun_.\n\nThird, the Urth of 1000 years pre-Severian just doesn't have the\ntechnology to build the _Whorl_.  Even if it did, the population\nwouldn't be as technically sophisticated as the _Whorl_'s sleepers.\nContrast Mamelta's technical saavy with that of the young Burgundofara\nof _Urth_. (Typhon/Pas seems to be quite the patron of science --\ntransplants, control of robots and people through computer monitors,\npeople sleeping for hundreds of years, genetically engineered supermen\nand women, etc.)  Note also that in _New Sun_ Typhon seems to have\ntaluses but no chems -- obviously chems exist even in Severian's time,\nbut they seem more common on _Long Sun_'s Short Sun Whorl than in\nTyphon's Urth.\n\nFourth, the society and technology of the _Whorl_ (as exemplified by\nViron) seems to me more like it would fit into a timeframe less than\n1000 years from _now_, not approximately 100,000 years from now. \nPresent-day languages are still known (though this could be a literary\ndevice).  Computers still use cards and apparently vacuum tube displays\n(possibly another device, to be fair).  The religion is a trumpery\npaganism overlaid on Christianity and parodying it in a way that\nindicates that Catholicism at least is well-remembered in Pas's time.\nThis is not the case in _New Sun_, by the way; while there are Christian\nand even Catholic survivals in Severian's time, they are only fragments,\nand the Conciliator appears to be a \"new dispensation.\"\n\nIt would be easy to dismiss these problems by saying \"Wolfe messed up.\"\nMaybe he did, but I'd be interested in knowing if anyone else has a\nsolution or interpretation that makes more sense.\n\n     Dave\n     (david_lebling at avid.com)\n\nQuestions or problems to whorl-owner at lists.best.com"
        }
      ]
    }
  ]
}