{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/whorl/747", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "whorl", "thread": { "id": 747, "subject": "Revealed at Last! What (Would Have) Killed the Inhumi\t!", "messages": 7, "voices": 4, "first": "2000-01-11T12:51:40+00:00", "last": "2000-01-19T13:12:34+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Urash, Tom", "address": "turash at firstam.com" }, "date": "2000-01-11T12:51:40+00:00", "subject": "RE: (whorl) Revealed at Last! What (Would Have) Killed the Inhumi\t!", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom:\tJim Henley [SMTP:jhenley at nas-corp.com]\nSent:\tTuesday, January 11, 2000 12:42 PM\nTo:\twhorl at lists.best.com\nSubject:\t(whorl) Revealed at Last! What (Would Have) Killed the\nInhumi! (Maybe...)\n\nThey're cold-blooded. And they hibernate.\n\nBest,\n\n\nJim\n\nP.S. Do I need a Whorl name now? I'm thinking \"Plasma\"..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\tGreat guess! Do you have any text to support it? \n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Urash, Tom", "address": "turash at firstam.com" }, "date": "2000-01-11T16:21:03+00:00", "subject": "RE: (whorl) Revealed at Last! What (Would Have) Killed the Inhumi\t!", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom:\tJim Henley [SMTP:jhenley at nas-corp.com]\nSent:\tTuesday, January 11, 2000 3:19 PM\nTo:\twhorl at lists.best.com\nSubject:\tRE: (whorl) Revealed at Last! What (Would Have) Killed the\nInhumi\t! (Maybe...)\n\n\nI think so, Tom. Happily, David Liebling already gathered most of it for\nme\n(http://www.moonmilk.com/whorl/archives/#59) so I hope I can be permitted\nto\nmerely summarize.\n\n1) all the reptilian imagery used to describe Krait et al. Not least,\n\"It's\njust occurred to me that you inhumi are rather like a kind of\nlizard I've noticed in my garden...\"\n\nIIRC, the Rajan uses a lot of snake figuration to describe Krait at the\npit.\n\n2) It explains why the Rajan expects to find Jahlee alive under the stone\n-\nhe knows that they can slow their metabolism in unfavorable conditions.\n\n3) Green is full of jungles and dinosaurs. I infer that it is warmer than\nBlue. I'm inclined to think that the Rajan even describes it as warmer,\nbut\nI could be misremembering. (One other thought: cross-reference jungles,\ndinosaurs, swamps and hot green planets in The Big Book of Science Fiction\nTropes and you find the entry for - Venus.)\n\n4) They must be able to essentially shut down their metabolism on the\ntrajectory from Green to Blue. And it could be that it's the heat of early\nreentry that revives them.\n\n5) It's a perhaps slightly more practical secret to have than, \"Hey, if we\nstart loving each other, you guys are dead meat!\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\t \n\n\t Thanks for the listing, Plasma! I couldn't agree with you more (#5,\nabove): the \"love your neighbor\" angle always struck me as down right silly,\nnaive and extremely over simple for Wolfe. Every time I see it I'm reminded\nof Rodney King's feeble \"can't we all just get along?\" plea during the L.A.\nriots. I'm curious to know if anyone recalls old Quetzal having any\nbehaviors or allusions to support the cold-blooded/hibernation theory(?).\nRight or wrong, this theory is my favorite among all others espoused in this\nlist so far. \n\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Josh Levitan", "address": "josh_levitan at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2000-01-13T00:51:36+00:00", "subject": "RE: (whorl) Revealed at Last! What (Would Have) Killed the Inhumi\t!", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Been lurking for a while. First post to the list. Hopefully it's not too \nmoronic.\n\nThoughts on inhumi hibernating and whether or not this is The Secret --" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jim Henley wrote:\n3) Green is full of jungles and dinosaurs. I infer that it is warmer >than\nBlue. I'm inclined to think that the Rajan even describes it as >warmer, \nbut\nI could be misremembering. (One other thought: cross-reference >jungles,\ndinosaurs, swamps and hot green planets in The Big Book of Science >Fiction\nTropes and you find the entry for - Venus.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "4) They must be able to essentially shut down their metabolism on the\ntrajectory from Green to Blue. And it could be that it's the heat of >early\nreentry that revives them." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "5) It's a perhaps slightly more practical secret to have than, \"Hey, >if we\nstart loving each other, you guys are dead meat!\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Like Alga was saying, it's a good idea, and seems rather obvious. However, \nhow would this translate into a secret that would destroy the inhumi? After \nall, when the Rajan begins telling the secret to the inhumi, they are afraid \nof him acting on it, including Jahlee who just came out of hibernation (and \ndidn't seem that much worse for the wear after only getting a little \ncowblood in her system). And, the gardener and Evensong are there when she \ndoes come out of hibernation, and I believe that the Rajan sends them away \nbefore telling the secret. Also, this doesn't really work with the Rajan's \ncomment that they would be nothing more than dumb animals, no more harmful \nthan crocodiles... So that doesn't fit. I think a slightly better \ninterpretation than this theory would be that they require a certain amount \nof warmth or sunlight for energy, like dimetrodons or iguanas, however I \ndon't really see how the colonists could act on that in response to the \nentire population of inhumi.\n\nI have a feeling that Wolfe's given us enough info to figure out what the \nsecret is currently. It reminds me of that Borges story, \"The Mystery of \nThe Phoenix(?)\" (something like that) in Ficciones, where he talks around \nthe secret rite of the cult of the Phoenix and supposedly gives enough info \nto figure out what the rite is (although I've always been too dense to \nfigure it out). Anybody read OBW more than once yet and have another guess \nother than the hibernating/you-are-what-you-eat/do unto others guesses?\n\nThe Venus thing is an interesting guess. Perhaps, through the relativistic \neffects of vast interstellar travel over the three hundred years or so the \nship was in transit (if I'm remembering correctly), it did manage to do a \nboomerang/Planet of the Apes deal and head back to Urth after the new sun \narrived, encountering a flooded Urth (which fits with New Sun) and a green \nVenus. However, what happened to the remaining seven planets?\n\nJosh, who hasn't thought of a Vironese name yet... Suggestions?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jim Henley", "address": "jhenley at nas-corp.com" }, "date": "2000-01-14T08:42:35+00:00", "subject": "RE: (whorl) Revealed at Last! What (Would Have) Killed the Inhumi\t!", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: Josh Levitan [mailto:josh_levitan at hotmail.com]\nSent: Wednesday, January 12, 2000 7:52 PM\n\nI have a feeling that Wolfe's given us enough info to figure\nout what the\nsecret is currently. It reminds me of that Borges story,\n\"The Mystery of\nThe Phoenix(?)\" (something like that) in Ficciones, where he\ntalks around\nthe secret rite of the cult of the Phoenix and supposedly\ngives enough info\nto figure out what the rite is (although I've always been too\ndense to\nfigure it out)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, I haven't figured it out yet either, so if anyone wants to do a\n\"Borges spoiler,\" I'm all for it.\n\nMore on the cold-blooded inhumi in another message. Meanwhile," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The Venus thing is an interesting guess. Perhaps, through\nthe relativistic\neffects of vast interstellar travel over the three hundred\nyears or so the\nship was in transit (if I'm remembering correctly), it did\nmanage to do a\nboomerang/Planet of the Apes deal and head back to Urth after\nthe new sun\narrived, encountering a flooded Urth (which fits with New\nSun) and a green\nVenus. However, what happened to the remaining seven planets?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ah. They're still there? I say this because the little glossary at the\nbeginning of the book specifically refers to Blue as \"the better of the\n_habitable_ planets of the Short Sun system\" and Green as \"the worse of the\n_habitable_ planets.\" My emphasis, but the word appears in each entry,\nstrongly suggesting that the SS system includes _inhabitable_ planets as\nwell.\n\nThe one I'm left wondering about is Mars/Verdanthi. Too far away to be\nnoticed? No longer habitable? Kicked into too eccentric an orbit by the\npassing of the New Sun?\n\nOr are Blue and Green not Ushas and Skuld after all?\n\nBest,\n\n\nJim" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Josh, who hasn't thought of a Vironese name yet... Suggestions?\n______________________________________________________\nGet Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jim Henley", "address": "jhenley at nas-corp.com" }, "date": "2000-01-18T08:57:55+00:00", "subject": "RE: (whorl) Revealed at Last! What (Would Have) Killed the Inhumi!", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: Jim Jordan [mailto:jbjordan at gnt.net]\nSent: Saturday, January 15, 2000 6:40 PM\n\nI still say that the secret (probably) is that when humans\nlearn to live\nwith each other in love and charity (not enslaving one another, for\ninstance), the inhumi will follow suit, being imitators of\nhumanity. That's\nwhy Quetzal is ambiguous, because he learned from Patera Pike." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But if this is the secret, then why doesn't Jahlee burst out laughing when\nthreatened with it? At that very minute she is being presented with _deeds_\nshowing just how far humans are from accomplishing such - the Rajan is\npreparing to use the inhumi to prey on his human enemies.\n\nNo, whatever \"the secret\" is, it's got to be a darn sight more - _do-able_,\nas they say.\n\nBest,\n\n\nJim\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "William H. Ansley", "address": "wansley at warwick.net" }, "date": "2000-01-18T23:17:52+00:00", "subject": "RE: (whorl) Revealed at Last! What (Would Have) Killed the Inhumi!", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: Jim Jordan [mailto:jbjordan at gnt.net]\nSent: Saturday, January 15, 2000 6:40 PM\n\nI still say that the secret (probably) is that when humans\nlearn to live\nwith each other in love and charity (not enslaving one another, for\ninstance), the inhumi will follow suit, being imitators of\nhumanity. That's\nwhy Quetzal is ambiguous, because he learned from Patera Pike." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But if this is the secret, then why doesn't Jahlee burst out laughing when\nthreatened with it? At that very minute she is being presented with _deeds_\nshowing just how far humans are from accomplishing such - the Rajan is\npreparing to use the inhumi to prey on his human enemies.\n\nNo, whatever \"the secret\" is, it's got to be a darn sight more - _do-able_,\nas they say.\n\nBest,\n\n\nJim" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree. In fact I posted a message along much the same lines last\nNovember. Although the message is long, I am going to quote almost all of\nit, because it contains most of the passges from OBW that are relevant to\nthis discussion. My take on the secret of the inhumi is at the end of the\nquoted material, below.\n\n---------------------------------------------------------------\nFrom: \"William H. Ansley\" \nSubject: (whorl) The secret of the inhumi, again\nDate: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 01:16:10 -0500\n\n\"Roberson, John\" wrote:\n\n[...]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Also, does anyone care to speculate about the secret of the inhumu?\nIt would seem that their chameleon-like body-shaping goes even further to\nimitating the intelligence and anger/hatred of man for them and other men.\nThere is a passage to the effect that if humans would only be more caring,\nthen the inhumu would revert back to beasts in the jungle. Also, Krait\nbecomes more like Horn and Horn's son as Horn begins relating to him as his\nson by proxy. If people only loved one another, does this mean that inhumu\nwould be unable to prey on them and eventually slink back into the jungles\nof Green? It would appear in the Long Sun series that Quetzal absorbed some\nof the benign aspects of their religion while masquerading as a human and\nProlocutor." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "As a matter of fact, I would. There has been some discussion of this\nalready, which you can find on the archives, too. I have been meaning to\npost about this, because I don't completely agree with what has already\nbeen said on the subject.\n\nI will quote the relevant postings below (I have inserted an additional\n\"Horn's hint\" in among those in Dave Lebling's list. By the way Dave,\nthanks for all the work you put in on collecting the \"Krait's secret\"\nreferences.):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David_Lebling at avid.com (Dave Lebling) wrote:\nAs promised, these are hints Horn gives us about the inhumi's secret:\n\np. 217: The inhumu had told me that we human beings were the cattle of his\nkind.\nThey drink our blood in preference to the blood of animals merely because they\nprefer it (this is what he said) ..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "[William Ansley] p. 241: ...I would cheerfully have burned or buried the\ninhuma that bit Sinew when we were living in the tent. They are vile\ncreatures, exactly as Hari Mau says; but how can they help it, when we are\nas we are? I wish sometimes that Krait had not told me." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "p. 315: He [Mehman] and Evensong waited outside while I explained what I had\nlearned from Krait on Green. ... \"Will you do whatever we tell you, if I\nrelease\nyou?\" I asked the inhuma. \"Or shall I make good on my threat?\" ... \"I warn\nyou,\nif you will not I am going to spread my knowledge everywhere.\"\n\np. 317: \"It's just occurred to me that you inhumi are rather like a kind of\nlizard I've noticed in my garden. It can change colors ... While I acknowledge\nthat you inhumi are a much higher form of life, it seems to me that the\nprinciple is about the same.\" ... She only nodded. \"You are correct, Rajan.\"\n\np 350: \"If only we protected one another, they would all be idiots or\nworse. As\nit is, they always get enough to keep them going.\"\n\np. 372: \"I couldn't kill them here and now, if that's what you mean; but I\nknow\nhow they might be returned to the mere vermin that they once were -- mindless,\nhideous, blood-drinking animals seeking their prey in Green's jungles.\"\n\np. 374: \"Krait told me why they have to have it as he lay dying. ... He was\nthinking of the thing that linked him to me, and me to him -- of the bond of\nblood between us.\"\n\np. 375: \"That's the kind of thing the inhumi must have done before the\nVanished\nPeople reached Green -- reshaped themselves to look like the animals they\nhunted\n... \"\n\"If only we cared about each other sufficiently. If only all of us loved all\nthe others enough, they would go back to that. They would still think them\nhorrible creatures, and they would still be dangerous, as the crocodiles\nin this\nlower river water are. But they would be no worse.\"\n\nThere may be others that I've missed, of course, particularly any that are\nearly\nin the book.\n\nI think the foregoing fits pretty well with the theory that it is only by\ndrinking the blood of intelligent creatures that the inhumi established and\nmaintain their own intelligence. In addition, the inhumi may get their\nattitude\nfrom humans as well -- that is, they are monsters because we are monsters.\n\nIf that is the secret, then we have a certain nice symmetry with parts of the\nChristian worldview. That is, we are threatened by evil, but the evil comes\nfrom ourselves. If we protected each other from it, it would disappear. In\nshort, we should all follow the Golden Rule. I won't speculate on how this\nwould\nfit with Catholic (or any other) theology, but it seems like too good a match.\n\nThis story is, first and foremost, about love. Not love as in sex or lust\n(though that's there, too), but love between father and son, son and father,\nhusband and wife, even between pet and master. The secret of the inhumi\nis that\nlove will protect us from them.\n\n --- Dave Lebling\n (aka vizcacha)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jim Jordan (Nutria) wrote:\nWell, that's what I was going to write, having finished the book last\nnight and reading the posts today, but you beat me to it. Completely agree.\nI think we have all we need to know the secret now. Remember also that\nWolfe discusses devils/fallen-angels in other stories, and calls them\nservants of God who are used to chastise/punish people. The inhumi have the\nsame role here. It might be useful to consider how exorcisms are done, both\nthose in the Gospels and in Acts, and the Roman Catholic rite." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree that drinking human blood is what makes the inhumi intelligent and\nhuman in their emotional/mental/moral structure. I find an interesting\nparallel between the inhumi and the nephilim in Tim Powers' _The Stress of\nHer Regard_, which I highly recommend to everyone here who hasn't read it.\nIn Powers' book the nephilim use the pattern (presumably DNA) in human\nblood to take on human form. However, I have a problem with the way Dave\nphrased the final passages of his posting.\n\nThe threat contained in the secret that Horn uses to control the inhumi\n(Krait's secret) has to be something that they believe is possible to carry\nout. If the threat Horn is holding over them is, \"I will tell people that\nthey can defeat you by following the Golden Rule,\" I think they would have\nhave laughed in his face. The inhumi know human nature much too well to\nbelieve that, even with the survival of humanity at stake, all people, or\neven most of them will be able to do unto others only what they would have\nthe others do unto them. While it seems possible to me that if all the\npeople on Blue started to love one another then the inhumi would love them\nas well and no longer want to prey on them, I don't think that the\nprecondition is possible. And, more importantly for my argument, I don't\nbelieve that the inhumi would believe it was possible, either.\n\nI think that if we have enough information to know what the secret is\nalready (and we may not) then it has to be something a good deal more\nspecific than obeying the Golden Rule, although I don't think it's\nsomething entirely different. I think this quote is the key:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "p 350: \"If only we protected one another, they would all be idiots or\nworse. As\nit is, they always get enough to keep them going.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think the secret is that ALL human beings must be protected from the bite\nof the inhumi. No one on Blue wants the inhumi to feed on themselves or\ntheir loved ones and they will usually go to great lengths to prevent it.\nBut, even though most of them probably don't want the inhumi to feed on any\nhuman being, they won't risk themselves or even make much of an effort to\nprotect anyone else. But, if everyone knew that if the inhumi were\nprevented from getting any human blood at all, they would become\nunintelligent and (more importantly) unable to pose as human, then they\nmight be motivated to actually act on this knowledge.\n\nI have to wonder how possible this complete protection would be, however.\nIt doesn't seem entirely plausible to me, which makes me expect that there\nwill turn out to be more than this to Krait's secret.\n\nWilliam Ansley\n\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Urash, Tom", "address": "turash at firstam.com" }, "date": "2000-01-19T13:12:34+00:00", "subject": "RE: (whorl) Revealed at Last! What (Would Have) Killed the Inhumi\t!", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom:\tJim Jordan [SMTP:jbjordan at gnt.net]\nSent:\tSaturday, January 15, 2000 5:40 PM\nTo:\twhorl at lists.best.com\nSubject:\tRE: (whorl) Revealed at Last! What (Would Have) Killed the\nInhumi! \n\nI still say that the secret (probably) is that when humans learn to live\nwith each other in love and charity (not enslaving one another, for\ninstance), the inhumi will follow suit, being imitators of humanity.\nThat's\nwhy Quetzal is ambiguous, because he learned from Patera Pike. \n\nNutria" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\tIn other words, when Blue becomes a Utopian society the inhumi will,\nafter sufficient feeding on and exposure to the ways of happy humanity,\nbecome loving cohabitors on Blue? This seems so improbable to me; so much\nsweetness and light. Besides, how is this peaceful ending a threat to the\ninhumi, so much so that they would actively seek the destruction of the\none(?) man carrying the secret on Blue?\n\n\tTom\n\n\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] } ] }