{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/whorl/847", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "whorl", "thread": { "id": 847, "subject": "Dr. Crane's plot", "messages": 4, "voices": 4, "first": "2000-06-21T13:05:37+00:00", "last": "2000-06-24T10:56:25+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "akt", "address": "akt at attglobal.net" }, "date": "2000-06-21T13:05:37+00:00", "subject": "(whorl) Dr. Crane's plot", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From Alex:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes. In fact, the \"Silk for Calde\" graffiti shows up shortly after,\nand Horn lets us in on the (strong likelyhood anyway) that it wasn't\none of the schoolboys who wrote it. And this is before the populace\nwould (I think) realistically get going on its own from just Silk's\nstreetside conversation with Blood." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Once we meet Crane's \"gang,\" which isn't until a lot later, I think we\ncan have no doubt as to who effected the graffiti campaign. Certainly\nit's not \"spontaneous,\" in any way, not, at first, genuinely populist.\nNor, of course, is Hy's letter to Silk." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On the prophecy thing--does anyone in the books ever attempt to make\na prophecy (augury) or even have a dream that doesn't foreshadow\nevents to come? I think that although there's no time-travel going\non here, lots of things seem as locked in as in BOTNS. Interestingly,\nSilk's first enlightenment is sparse on scenes from the future.\nIs any explanation (other than Silk's \"talent\" and self-fulfilling\nprophecy with respect to the thefts in Lake) given for the wild\nsuccess of augury/random-page-opening?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, this is standard practice in fiction, even non-genre fiction. We\n(readers) always make subconcious or semi-concious note of dreams,\nprophecies, fortune cookies, Tarot cards and also the ravings of the\nmad.\n\nFrom Rostrum:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On the other hand, Q. knows about the special embryos and seems to\nhave\nhad his eye on Silk for a while. It's possible he initiated some of\nthe\n\"Silk for Calde\" stuff and that he plays as big a role\nbehind-the-scenes\nas Crane. But I'll have to wait for my re-read of the series in\npreparation for reading OBW to argue the point any further." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, about the embryos, not necessarily that Silk is one, though, given\nSilk's age, and Q's residence in the Whorl, it is possible. Hasn't had\nhis eye on Silk, though--first notices his name in flying by Teasel's\nwindow, and we are present at their first actual meeting, which I don't\nhave time to look up. I don't see a clear motive in his being behind the\ncampaign, but that of Crane & co. is as clear as glass.\n\nI should add that part of my insistance on Q as Pike's ghost (which I\nhave sadly had to abandon) was that I believed this to be a ruse where\nhe could get a look at Silk before Silk saw him.\n\n-alga\n\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Straight", "address": "straight at email.unc.edu" }, "date": "2000-06-21T14:12:17+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) Dr. Crane's plot", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Wed, 21 Jun 2000 akt at attglobal.net wrote:\nOn the prophecy thing--does anyone in the books ever attempt to make\na prophecy (augury) or even have a dream that doesn't foreshadow\nevents to come? I think that although there's no time-travel going\non here, lots of things seem as locked in as in BOTNS. Interestingly,\nSilk's first enlightenment is sparse on scenes from the future.\nIs any explanation (other than Silk's \"talent\" and self-fulfilling\nprophecy with respect to the thefts in Lake) given for the wild\nsuccess of augury/random-page-opening?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, this is standard practice in fiction, even non-genre fiction. We\n(readers) always make subconcious or semi-concious note of dreams,\nprophecies, fortune cookies, Tarot cards and also the ravings of the\nmad." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But in most books this is kind of a wink at the reader; we're not\nsupposed to ask why the madman's ravings should forshadow events in the\nbook. In the Long Sun, however, one of the important points is that the\nreligion of Pas, including divination via sacrifice is fake. We're\nsupposed to ask questions about what exactly is going on with the\nreligious stuff, so we need some other explanation for why the prophesies\nare coming true, e.g. the Outsider, some sort of psionic talent of the\nsuperembryos, some sort of influence from the sacred windows, etc.\n\n-Rostrum\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Alex David Groce", "address": "alex_groce at gs246.sp.cs.cmu.edu" }, "date": "2000-06-21T15:34:48+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) Dr. Crane's plot", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Rostrum said:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But in most books this is kind of a wink at the reader; we're not\nsupposed to ask why the madman's ravings should forshadow events in the\nbook. In the Long Sun, however, one of the important points is that the\nreligion of Pas, including divination via sacrifice is fake. We're\nsupposed to ask questions about what exactly is going on with the\nreligious stuff, so we need some other explanation for why the prophesies\nare coming true, e.g. the Outsider, some sort of psionic talent of the\nsuperembryos, some sort of influence from the sacred windows, etc." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thanks. That's what I was trying to say. Lots of fiction does this,\nbut seldom are the people in the fiction TRYING to forsee the future\nand managing to do so--when they do, unless the work is genre fantasy,\nwe look for a scientific explanation or a metafictional conceit\n(Muriel Spark pulls the latter off quite a lot). My hypothesis is\nthat Wolfe wants it to be possible to explain this \"scientifically\" by\nassuming Silk's mysterious talents go this far (Silk seems to be the\nonly one actually doing this in Long Sun) or some such, but really to\nlean us towards the assumption that Silk is being given signs by the\nOutsider, who clearly doesn't mean \"you will be given no help\" in quite\nthe way you or I would." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "\"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.\" John 8:32\n--\nAlex David Groce (agroce+ at cs.cmu.edu)\nPh.D. Student, Carnegie Mellon University - Computer Science Department\n8112 Wean Hall (412)-268-3066\nhttp://www.cs.cmu.edu/~agroce\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jim Jordan", "address": "jbjordan at gnt.net" }, "date": "2000-06-24T10:56:25+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) Dr. Crane's plot", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "At 03:34 PM 6/21/2000 -0400, you wrote:\n\n My hypothesis is" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "that Wolfe wants it to be possible to explain this \"scientifically\" by\nassuming Silk's mysterious talents go this far (Silk seems to be the\nonly one actually doing this in Long Sun) or some such, but really to\nlean us towards the assumption that Silk is being given signs by the\nOutsider, who clearly doesn't mean \"you will be given no help\" in quite\nthe way you or I would." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Alex David Groce (agroce+ at cs.cmu.edu)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\tI suggest the Ruler's words to Westwind in \"Westwind,\" to the effect that\nHe prefers not to interfere openly, but behind the scenes. I suggest that\nSilk's \"mysterious talents\" are quickened by his baptismal encounter with\nthe Outsider, and with the arrival of Oreb (both the Holy Spirit and also\nfrom Germanic lore) as a kind of cryptic guide. Thus, it's not just Silk's\ntalents, but those talents as guided by the Outsider.\n\nNutria\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] } ] }