# Dr. Crane's plot *The Whorl list — 4 messages, 4 voices, 21 Jun 2000* > Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright > in each message remains with the person who wrote it. > Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original > archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than > retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact. --- ### akt *21 Jun 2000, 13:05* From Alex: > Yes. In fact, the "Silk for Calde" graffiti shows up shortly after, > and Horn lets us in on the (strong likelyhood anyway) that it wasn't > one of the schoolboys who wrote it. And this is before the populace > would (I think) realistically get going on its own from just Silk's > streetside conversation with Blood. Once we meet Crane's "gang," which isn't until a lot later, I think we can have no doubt as to who effected the graffiti campaign. Certainly it's not "spontaneous," in any way, not, at first, genuinely populist. Nor, of course, is Hy's letter to Silk. > On the prophecy thing--does anyone in the books ever attempt to make > a prophecy (augury) or even have a dream that doesn't foreshadow > events to come? I think that although there's no time-travel going > on here, lots of things seem as locked in as in BOTNS. Interestingly, > Silk's first enlightenment is sparse on scenes from the future. > Is any explanation (other than Silk's "talent" and self-fulfilling > prophecy with respect to the thefts in Lake) given for the wild > success of augury/random-page-opening? Well, this is standard practice in fiction, even non-genre fiction. We (readers) always make subconcious or semi-concious note of dreams, prophecies, fortune cookies, Tarot cards and also the ravings of the mad. From Rostrum: > On the other hand, Q. knows about the special embryos and seems to > have > had his eye on Silk for a while. It's possible he initiated some of > the > "Silk for Calde" stuff and that he plays as big a role > behind-the-scenes > as Crane. But I'll have to wait for my re-read of the series in > preparation for reading OBW to argue the point any further. Yes, about the embryos, not necessarily that Silk is one, though, given Silk's age, and Q's residence in the Whorl, it is possible. Hasn't had his eye on Silk, though--first notices his name in flying by Teasel's window, and we are present at their first actual meeting, which I don't have time to look up. I don't see a clear motive in his being behind the campaign, but that of Crane & co. is as clear as glass. I should add that part of my insistance on Q as Pike's ghost (which I have sadly had to abandon) was that I believed this to be a ruse where he could get a look at Silk before Silk saw him. -alga *This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun. --- ### Michael Straight *21 Jun 2000, 14:12 · follows akt* >> On Wed, 21 Jun 2000 akt at attglobal.net wrote: >> On the prophecy thing--does anyone in the books ever attempt to make >> a prophecy (augury) or even have a dream that doesn't foreshadow >> events to come? I think that although there's no time-travel going >> on here, lots of things seem as locked in as in BOTNS. Interestingly, >> Silk's first enlightenment is sparse on scenes from the future. >> Is any explanation (other than Silk's "talent" and self-fulfilling >> prophecy with respect to the thefts in Lake) given for the wild >> success of augury/random-page-opening? > Well, this is standard practice in fiction, even non-genre fiction. We > (readers) always make subconcious or semi-concious note of dreams, > prophecies, fortune cookies, Tarot cards and also the ravings of the > mad. But in most books this is kind of a wink at the reader; we're not supposed to ask why the madman's ravings should forshadow events in the book. In the Long Sun, however, one of the important points is that the religion of Pas, including divination via sacrifice is fake. We're supposed to ask questions about what exactly is going on with the religious stuff, so we need some other explanation for why the prophesies are coming true, e.g. the Outsider, some sort of psionic talent of the superembryos, some sort of influence from the sacred windows, etc. -Rostrum *This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun. --- ### Alex David Groce *21 Jun 2000, 15:34 · follows Michael Straight* Rostrum said: > But in most books this is kind of a wink at the reader; we're not > supposed to ask why the madman's ravings should forshadow events in the > book. In the Long Sun, however, one of the important points is that the > religion of Pas, including divination via sacrifice is fake. We're > supposed to ask questions about what exactly is going on with the > religious stuff, so we need some other explanation for why the prophesies > are coming true, e.g. the Outsider, some sort of psionic talent of the > superembryos, some sort of influence from the sacred windows, etc. Thanks. That's what I was trying to say. Lots of fiction does this, but seldom are the people in the fiction TRYING to forsee the future and managing to do so--when they do, unless the work is genre fantasy, we look for a scientific explanation or a metafictional conceit (Muriel Spark pulls the latter off quite a lot). My hypothesis is that Wolfe wants it to be possible to explain this "scientifically" by assuming Silk's mysterious talents go this far (Silk seems to be the only one actually doing this in Long Sun) or some such, but really to lean us towards the assumption that Silk is being given signs by the Outsider, who clearly doesn't mean "you will be given no help" in quite the way you or I would. ``` "And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." John 8:32 -- Alex David Groce (agroce+ at cs.cmu.edu) Ph.D. Student, Carnegie Mellon University - Computer Science Department 8112 Wean Hall (412)-268-3066 http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~agroce *This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun. ``` --- ### Jim Jordan *24 Jun 2000, 10:56 · follows Alex David Groce* At 03:34 PM 6/21/2000 -0400, you wrote: My hypothesis is > that Wolfe wants it to be possible to explain this "scientifically" by > assuming Silk's mysterious talents go this far (Silk seems to be the > only one actually doing this in Long Sun) or some such, but really to > lean us towards the assumption that Silk is being given signs by the > Outsider, who clearly doesn't mean "you will be given no help" in quite > the way you or I would. > Alex David Groce (agroce+ at cs.cmu.edu) I suggest the Ruler's words to Westwind in "Westwind," to the effect that He prefers not to interfere openly, but behind the scenes. I suggest that Silk's "mysterious talents" are quickened by his baptismal encounter with the Outsider, and with the arrival of Oreb (both the Holy Spirit and also from Germanic lore) as a kind of cryptic guide. Thus, it's not just Silk's talents, but those talents as guided by the Outsider. Nutria *This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun. ---