Subject: (whorl) [SPOILERS] In Green's Jungles, first thoughts

From: Dan Rabin <wolfe-lists at danrabin.com>
Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2000 23:19:07 +0000

Spoiler space courtesy of Christopher Culver:

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Wow, that was smooth!  I found the reading to be much easier than in 
_On Blue's Waters_, which is odd because the narration is, if 
anything, more complex.  It's amazing, when I think about it after 
finishing the book, that Wolfe makes a bunch of characters sit around 
on the brink of war telling each other stories for many chapters. 
This just happen to fill in the back story and advance the plot at 
the same time.

It seems pretty daring to me that Wolfe builds up to the recognition 
scene between Horn/Silk and Auk and Chenille, and then yells "Cut!", 
only confirming our suspicions in the conversation afterwards back on 
Blue.

Even withing the conceit that Horn is writing during a war in which 
he is a leader, he seldom fills us in on events in a straight line. 
He keeps jumping ahead and back and around.  The narration reminds me 
of the 1970's US TV detective "Columbo", who affected a bumbling, 
easygoing style to disarm suspects into giving up crucial clues. 
Behind the bumbling incompetent narrator Horn, who's always 
remembering something he should have said already, is the ruthlessly 
analytical Wolfe, who knows *exactly* the conceptual order in which 
he wants events to be revealed.  That order just happens to have only 
a little to do with the internal flow of time in the story.  Perhaps 
if we reanalyze the narrative in terms of the progress of 
enlightenment (ours, Horn's, Horn's interlocutors') the series will 
turn out to be progressing in a perfectly straight line.

It seems like we're converging on a revelation of Krait's secret at 
about the rate at which we're approaching Horn's homecoming.  I would 
hazard a guess that there's a third important progression to be tied 
up:  Horn must understand by the end that he *has* brought Silk.  I 
don't know how this fits with the major new twist in IGJ, which is 
all that spirit travel.  In those scenes, the spiritual natures 
manifest as physical.  This would seem to dictate that the spirit 
(Horn in this case) should be more "real" than the body (Silk's); but 
we  also have to contend with the occasional intrusion of Silk's 
memories into Horn's consciousness.

Certainly it's becoming clear that Horn/Silk is an extraordinary 
leader who behaves much like Silk under pressure: brilliant, but 
wants to resign his position the whole time he's bringing victory.

We should have some very beautiful strangeness lying in wait for us 
in _Return to the Whorl_.

   -- Dan Rabin

P.S.  Has it occurred to anyone else that Silk "sits as the right 
head of God"?  Couldn't resist--sorry.

*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun.
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From: Adam Stephanides <adamsteph at earthlink.net>
Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 10:29:44 +0000

Dan Rabin wrote:
> It's amazing, when I think about it after

Of course, we don't (I didn't, anyway) feel any sense of urgency to find
out about the war, since it comes out of left field in the story as a
whole, and since Horn has very little invested in it.  It feels more
daring to me that Horn's adventures on Green, which are what I had
expected IGJ to be about, are told only in fragments, and the bulk of
them are summarized in the eight pages of Horn's second story.  My guess
is that by doing this, Wolfe is foregrounding the act of narration, as
he frequently does elsewhere: the events on Green were so traumatic that
Horn can't bring himself to describe them at length.

> he wants events to be revealed.

In having Horn, Mora and Fava play their "guessing game," it seems to me
that Wolfe is teasingly symbolizing the game he is playing with his
readers.

> I would
> up:  Horn must understand by the end that he *has* brought Silk.

Now that we know how Horn got into Silk's body (assuming it is Silk's)
the question I asked about IGJ remains: why doesn't Horn know he's in
Silk's body?  Why doesn't he recognize whose body is in the grave
(assuming it's the obvious person, whose name I'm hiding from accidental
readers of this post)?  Even if he doesn't recognize Silk's body, didn't
he meet anyone on the Whorl who addressed him as Silk?  Of course, maybe
he does know he's in Silk's body, and is hiding the fact from his
readers (while leaving obvious clues).  But then why was he continuing
the search for Silk at the start of OBW?

> wants to resign his position the whole time he's bringing victory.

The Horn of OBW resembles the non-apotheosized Severian: someone who
feels strongly, suffers greatly, and is very human, to the point of
being unsympathetic.  The Horn of IGJ is much more like Silk in more
than a physical sense; he's clearly a good man, and a dispenser of
wisdom and good counsel, while humbly insisting all the time that he is
no such thing.  I have to admit that as a protagonist I prefer the first
model to the second.
 
> in _Return to the Whorl_.

It's clear now that revealing the titles of all three books in advance
was a trap set by Wolfe for the reader.  After reading OBW, I naturally
assumed that the other two books would be about the Green and Whorl
legs, respectively, of Horn's search for Silk.  But little of IGJ takes
place on Green, and much of what does occurs on a subsequent visit.  In
light of this, we can't assume either that the Whorl referred to in
"Return to the Whorl" is the Long Sun Whorl, or that if it is, the
"return" referred to is that of Horn's quest for Silk.

--Adam

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From: Fernando Q. Gouvea <fqgouvea at colby.edu>
Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 12:22:05 +0000

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Well, I just finished reading IGJ. Cost me a partly sleepless night, it
did. I thought this one was even more gripping than OBW, and at times
really moving. 

To join the conversation...

**** On Sun, 23 Jul 2000 10:29:44 -0700, Adam Stephanides <adamsteph at earthlink.net> said:

Adam> Dan Rabin wrote:

>> It's amazing, when I think about it after finishing the book, that Wolfe
>> makes a bunch of characters sit around on the brink of war telling each
>> other stories for many chapters.

Adam> Of course, we don't (I didn't, anyway) feel any sense of urgency to
Adam> find out about the war, since it comes out of left field in the story
Adam> as a whole, and since Horn has very little invested in it. 

I didn't react that way at all. The stories reveal some interesting
characters, and the characters were deeply involved in the war, so I found
that I did care a great deal, though I cared more about Mora and Fava and
what would become of them. 

I thought that the way Horn ends up telling/not telling us about what
happened on Green is quite appropriate. Green is a nightmare world, and the
experience gets told in dreams and stories and nightmares, which makes
sense. 

I was fascinated by the fact that the book really is about Green's Jungles
and the hold they have on Horn's memories, which is so great that he can
actually, given the proper circumstances, take himself back in a kind of
astral projection. The central thread on which the book hangs is the
inhumi: one or another of them seems to be around all the time, and a lot
of the action and talk has to do with them.

>> I would hazard a guess that there's a third important progression to be
>> tied up: Horn must understand by the end that he *has* brought Silk.

Adam> Now that we know how Horn got into Silk's body (assuming it is
Adam> Silk's) the question I asked about IGJ remains: why doesn't Horn know
Adam> he's in Silk's body? 

My impression is that he does know he is in Silk's body, and maybe even
realizes that there has been some mingling of the personalities. But he is
not really Silk, just as Fava is not really an inhuma, as the "astral
projection" sections reveal. Or at least he's not completely Silk: Hide
notes that he looks much more like Horn during at least one of the
trips. On the other hand, he seems to be going to become Silk in some
sense.

It's clear that many of Wolfe's usual themes are going to be important in
this series of books too: one who has died and come back changed, the issue
of becoming the person you are meant to be, the fact that those who are
closest to being truly good are exactly those who feel they are farthest
from being good. There's a lot of Christian imagery too, from the "unknown
God" of the Neighbors to the Eucharist at the stone table.

Wolfe never ceases to amaze me. 

Fernando

-- 

Fernando Q. Gouvea                      
Department of Mathematics               Editor, FOCUS and MAA Online
Colby College                           http://www.maa.org
Waterville, ME 04901
fqgouvea at colby.edu                      http://www.colby.edu/math
==========================================================

WHERE CAN THE MATTER BE

        Oh, dear, where can the matter be
        When it's converted to energy?
        There is a slight loss of parity.
        Johnny's so long at the fair.

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From: Adam Stephanides <adamsteph at earthlink.net>
Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 14:55:35 +0000

> Adam> Silk's) the question I asked about IGJ remains: why doesn't Horn know
                                           ^^^
                                   I meant OBW
> My impression is that he does know he is in Silk's body

But, IIRC, at the start of OBW Horn is looking for Silk by circulating
Silk's physical description.  Even if Horn believed that Silk's spirit
had somehow been transferred to another physical body (as opposed to
Mainframe), there's no reason for him to think that this new body would
look like Silk's old body.

> Fava is not really an inhuma, as the "astral
> projection" sections reveal.

Fava is really an inhuma, as is Jahlee.  Their spirits are human in
appearance because they absorb their intelligence and personalities from
the humans whose blood they drink.

> There's a lot of Christian imagery too, from the "unknown

Why do you see the Neighbors' unknown god [it's lower-case in the book]
as Christian?  And why, if he is Christian (or even if he isn't) do the
Neighbors refuse to tell Horn who he is "for your sake"?  Another
mystery to ponder until RETURN.  Possibly they believe that every race
should stick to its own gods; but that's a very un-Christian sentiment
(at least un-Wolfe's brand of Christianity).

--Adam

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From: Fernando Q. Gouvea <fqgouvea at colby.edu>
Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 15:28:28 +0000

**** On Sun, 23 Jul 2000 14:55:35 -0700, Adam Stephanides <adamsteph at earthlink.net> said:

>>  My impression is that he does know he is in Silk's body

Adam> But, IIRC, at the start of OBW Horn is looking for Silk by
Adam> circulating Silk's physical description.  Even if Horn believed that
Adam> Silk's spirit had somehow been transferred to another physical body
Adam> (as opposed to Mainframe), there's no reason for him to think that
Adam> this new body would look like Silk's old body.

True, there's something here that's unclear. But it's impossible to imagine
that Horn hasn't looked himself in a mirror!

>> Fava is not really an inhuma, as the "astral projection" sections
>> reveal.

Adam> Fava is really an inhuma, as is Jahlee.  Their spirits are human in
Adam> appearance because they absorb their intelligence and personalities
Adam> from the humans whose blood they drink.

Yes, of course. I was using "really" in the sense "not physically, but in
spirit", just as Horn is Horn, not physically, but in spirit.

>> There's a lot of Christian imagery too, from the "unknown God" of the
>> Neighbors to the Eucharist at the stone table.

Adam> Why do you see the Neighbors' unknown god [it's lower-case in the
Adam> book] as Christian? 

My point was just that using the phrase brings in Christian associations
and images, not that one should literally read it as Christian. When
St. Paul preached in Athens, according to the book of Acts, he was
disgusted by the polytheism of the Greeks but noted that one of their
temples was dedicated "to an unknown god". In his sermon, he explains that
this is the God he is talking about. So the phrase rings a bell, especially
when used in a context where one is talking about religious contact between
two different cultures.

Fernando

-- 

Fernando Q. Gouvea                      

Money is the root of all wealth.

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From: Adam Stephanides <adamsteph at earthlink.net>
Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 23:19:09 +0000

> that Horn hasn't looked himself in a mirror!

Do they have mirrors on Blue?  I don't remember, but the level of
technology is low enough that it's possible that they don't.  But if
they do, it reinforces my point.  If Horn were in Silk's body, he should
know it.  But there's no indication that he does, and some indication
that he doesn't.

> spirit", just as Horn is Horn, not physically, but in spirit.

I realized it was a technicality when I wrote it.  But by your
reasoning, no inhumi would "really" be inhumi, since presumably they
would all appear "in spirit" as whatever species they have absorbed the
nature of.

> when used in a context where one is talking about religious contact between

Ah.  That's what I get for presuming to discuss religion in Wolfe
without having read the New Testament.

--Adam

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From: Fernando Q. Gouvea <fqgouvea at colby.edu>
Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 09:19:20 +0000

**** On Sun, 23 Jul 2000 23:19:09 -0700, Adam Stephanides <adamsteph at earthlink.net> said:

Adam> I realized it was a technicality when I wrote it.  But by your
Adam> reasoning, no inhumi would "really" be inhumi, since presumably they
Adam> would all appear "in spirit" as whatever species they have absorbed
Adam> the nature of.

I haven't made up my mind about this one... Is Wolfe saying that *all*
inhumi have essentially human spirits, or that some get to that point after
extensive (and friendly) contact with humans? Or is contact with *Silk*
necessary? (After all, we have only two points of evidence...)

The inhumi seem to be spiritual (as well as physical) chamaleons. One might
conjecture that they are all semi-human in spirit, but the slave masters in
Green wouldn't be very clearly human while the ones who live in Blue are
closer. 

Another question: if the inhumi eventually become close copies of those
they prey on, shouldn't the inhumi be fighting among themselves now? After
all, this characteristic of humanity is strongly emphasized in the book.

On a completely different tack: I'm intrigued by the interlude in
Nessus. Given timescales, this would presumably be Severian's time. Of
course, the appearance of this bunch of strange people is a trivial event
in Nessus, but I keep wondering whether we have seen this event before, or
heard hints of it, in the New Sun books.

Fernando

-- 

Fernando Q. Gouvea                      

Nihilism should commence with oneself.

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From: Adam Stephanides <adamsteph at earthlink.net>
Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 20:54:08 +0000

> necessary? (After all, we have only two points of evidence...)

That last possibility hadn't occurred to me, but it's an intriguing one,
and seems quite possible in view of Horn's special relationship with
inhumi.  (He also has a special relationship with the Neighbors, as well
as with at least one hus, one night chough and whatever Seawrack is: he
really gets around.)

--Adam

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From: David Wells <adw at ovum.com>
Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2000 14:47:54 +0000

>Hide notes that [Silk] looks much more like Horn during at least one of the
trips.

I think that this is simply logical (well, spirit-logical anyway).
His body is 100% Silk. But his spirit is 50% Horn - hence looks more like
Horn. Cf. the changed appearance of Oreb's spirit (and, for that matter,
those of the inhumi).

I concur with others that Horn knows that he's in Silk's body, but denies
"being Silk" because
	- basic honesty. He isn't 100% Pure Silk(TM)
	- neither he nor the fragment of Silk's spirit within him actually
want to try to live up to the legendary status which Silk has attained
(The latter is, arguably, rather a selfish motive, although maybe I am
unfair in ascribing it to him).

old newt

P.S. Inhumi secret: I don't think anyone has cited this bit yet:
p. 253, SHorn speaking:
"After that [more people being killed] something else will happen, and still
more people will die, and the inhumi will come in the night to drink our
blood, _carousing upon our hates and fears and lusts_".
Seems a fairly explicit statement of the "let's all be virtuous" hypothesis.

P.P.S. Is it possible that the "glamour" of the inhumi - their ability to
convince people that they are human beyond the illusions of
shape-modification and make-up - was inherited by feeding off the Vanished
People? This sort of ability seems right up the VPs' street...

---

From: Adam Stephanides <adamsteph at earthlink.net>
Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2000 19:17:24 +0000

> unfair in ascribing it to him).

But, as I've said before, the problem isn't just that he denies being
Silk.  It's that he never mentions being in Silk's body, and does things
which suggest that he doesn't know where Silk's body is.

> Seems a fairly explicit statement of the "let's all be virtuous" hypothesis.

Horn says elsewhere that our bad behavior makes the inhumi worse.  But
since he says it, it isn't the secret.

--Adam