{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/whorl/868", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "whorl", "thread": { "id": 868, "subject": "OBW: a minor mystery", "messages": 3, "voices": 3, "first": "2000-07-23T22:59:24+00:00", "last": "2000-07-24T09:07:54+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "William Ansley", "address": "wansley at warwick.net" }, "date": "2000-07-23T22:59:24+00:00", "subject": "(whorl) OBW: a minor mystery", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I have just finished IGJ. Although I hadn't intended to, I re-read \nOBW in its entirety first. I certainly noticed several things that I \nhadn't the first two times I read it but one trivial point stuck in \nmy mind. I am going into great depth about this point, even though I \nsay it is trivial because Wolfe must have had something definite in \nmind here and it seems as if it is possible to figure it out, to some \ndegree, at least.\n\nIt is a matter of the units of measure Horn mentions in OBW. The most \ncommon unit mentioned is the \"hand\". I did a little horseback riding \nlong go and seemed to recall that that a hand was 4 inches (10.16 \ncm). Webster's Third International Dictionary confirmed this and \ndidn't reveal any other measurements associated with hand. Horn also \nuses cubit as a measurement frequently. According to the dictionary \n(and my own memory) the historical length of a cubit is uncertain but \nit is generally agreed to have been about 18 inches (45.72 cm).\n\nThe problem I have with this is that the way Horn uses hand it seems \nas if it must be a unit closer to 8 inches (20.32 cm). Otherwise \ncertain passages in OBW don't seem to make sense. For example (I have \nadded my own notes in square brackets):\n\n----------------------\nEarlier I wrote that she [Mucor] is not tall, but that was \nmisleading. Majesty is not a mere matter of a hand or two over the \neight.\n----------------------\nOBW, p. 106, lines 4-6\n\n----------------------\nThe blade [of Sinew's hunting knife] was a hand and two fingers in \nlength, two fingers wide [...]\n----------------------\nOBW, p. 144, lines 30-31\n\n----------------------\nMy own height, I should say was three cubits and two hands at that \ntime -- a good deal less than it is now.\n----------------------\nOBW, p. 196, lines 3-4\n\nNow, I interpret the first passage I quote above to mean that eight \nhands is the average height for a woman (or person in general) and \nthat a hand or two over that would be (majestically, to shallow \nthinkers) tall. But eight traditional hands is only 32 inches (81.28 \ncm), far too short for a full grown woman, unless being on _The \nWhorl_ has somehow turned all the colonists into midgets. But if we \nsay a hand on Blue is 8 inches, then eight hands becomes 64 inches \n(162.56 cm), a much more reasonable average height for a woman, at \nleast by modern standards. If it is 7 inches (17.78 cm) then eight \nhands becomes 56 inches (142.24 cm), short by modern standards, but \nstill reasonable.\n\nThe second passage describes Sinew's hunting knife, which Horn refers \nto as long at least once.\n\n----------------------\nI loaned Maytera the long hunting knife Sinew had given me, and held \nmy fish steady for her.\n----------------------\nOBW, p. 9,1 lines 30-31\n\nIf a hand is the traditional measure, and assuming a finger is an \ninch (which is not necessarily a safe assumption), then the blade \nwould be 6 inches (15.24 cm) long. Now, I don't think that qualifies \nas a long hunting knife. However if a hand is 8 inches, then the \nblade becomes 10 inches (25.4 cm) long. If 7, then 9 inches (22.86 \ncm). A hunting knife with a blade of this length seems to me to more \nappropriately be described as long.\n\nFor the third passage I am assuming a cubit is 18 inches (45.72 cm), \nwhich is certainly questionable if hand represents a non-traditional \nmeasure, but if Wolfe has redefined all units of measure then nothing \ndefinite can be established. With this assumption, Horn's height is \n62 inches or 5 feet 2 inches (157.48 cm) using the traditional \nmeasure for a hand. Surely this is a bit short. If we assume that a \nhand is 8 inches then Horn's height is 70 inches or 5 feet 10 inches \n(177.8 cm) which seems more like it. If we have a 7 inch hand then \nHorn is 68 inches or 5 feet 8 inches (172.72 cm) tall.\n\nNow all the units of measure used by Horn are based on the lengths of \nparts of the body. A 'finger' is probably the width of a finger, \nbetween 0.5 (1.27 cm) and 1 inch (2.54 cm). A cubit is the length \nfrom the elbow to the tip of the longest outstretched fingertip (18 \ninches). A traditional hand is the width of the palm of the hand (4 \ninches). But perhaps Wolfe is thinking of the distance from the tip \nof the thumb to the tip of the pinkie when the fingers are spread as \nfar as possible. This is traditionally known as a \"span\" and is \ntraditionally 9 inches (22.86 cm). Or perhaps Wolfe version of 'hand' \nis measured from the base of the hand the the tip of the middle \nfinger (which might well come to between 7 and 8 inches).\n\nAnother thing we need to know before we can reach any definite \nconclusions is whether the units of measure Horn is using are \nstandard (like current English units such as the foot) or not. In the \nlatter case, each person would use his or her own foot to measure out \na length, to continue with the same example.\n\nWell, I have gone on far too long about this, so I'll stop here." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "William Ansley\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "matthew.malthouse", "address": "matthew.malthouse at guardian.co.uk" }, "date": "2000-07-24T09:02:24+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) OBW: a minor mystery", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 24/07/2000 03:59:24 William Ansley wrote:\nI have just finished IGJ. Although I hadn't intended to, I re-read\nOBW in its entirety first. I certainly noticed several things that I\nhadn't the first two times I read it but one trivial point stuck in\nmy mind. I am going into great depth about this point, even though I\nsay it is trivial because Wolfe must have had something definite in\nmind here and it seems as if it is possible to figure it out, to some\ndegree, at least.\n\nIt is a matter of the units of measure Horn mentions in OBW. The most\ncommon unit mentioned is the \"hand\". I did a little horseback riding\nlong go and seemed to recall that that a hand was 4 inches (10.16\ncm). Webster's Third International Dictionary confirmed this and\ndidn't reveal any other measurements associated with hand. Horn also\nuses cubit as a measurement frequently. According to the dictionary\n(and my own memory) the historical length of a cubit is uncertain but\nit is generally agreed to have been about 18 inches (45.72 cm).\n\nThe problem I have with this is that the way Horn uses hand it seems\nas if it must be a unit closer to 8 inches (20.32 cm). Otherwise\ncertain passages in OBW don't seem to make sense. For example (I have\nadded my own notes in square brackets):" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "...." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Now all the units of measure used by Horn are based on the lengths of\nparts of the body. A 'finger' is probably the width of a finger,\nbetween 0.5 (1.27 cm) and 1 inch (2.54 cm). A cubit is the length\nfrom the elbow to the tip of the longest outstretched fingertip (18\ninches). A traditional hand is the width of the palm of the hand (4\ninches). But perhaps Wolfe is thinking of the distance from the tip\nof the thumb to the tip of the pinkie when the fingers are spread as\nfar as possible. This is traditionally known as a \"span\" and is\ntraditionally 9 inches (22.86 cm). Or perhaps Wolfe version of 'hand'\nis measured from the base of the hand the the tip of the middle\nfinger (which might well come to between 7 and 8 inches)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "A \"hand\" could plausibly be the length from heel to fingertip - in my case 7\ninches or alternatively the span from thumb to little finger-tip 9 inches.\n\nMatthew\n\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Fernando Q. Gouvea", "address": "fqgouvea at colby.edu" }, "date": "2000-07-24T09:07:54+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) OBW: a minor mystery", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "**** On Sun, 23 Jul 2000 22:59:24 -0400, William Ansley said:\n\nWA> Now all the units of measure used by Horn are based on the lengths of\nWA> parts of the body. A 'finger' is probably the width of a finger,\nWA> between 0.5 (1.27 cm) and 1 inch (2.54 cm). A cubit is the length from\nWA> the elbow to the tip of the longest outstretched fingertip (18\nWA> inches). A traditional hand is the width of the palm of the hand (4\nWA> inches). But perhaps Wolfe is thinking of the distance from the tip of\nWA> the thumb to the tip of the pinkie when the fingers are spread as far\nWA> as possible. This is traditionally known as a \"span\" and is\nWA> traditionally 9 inches (22.86 cm). Or perhaps Wolfe version of 'hand'\nWA> is measured from the base of the hand the the tip of the middle finger\nWA> (which might well come to between 7 and 8 inches).\n\nI had been assuming that a \"hand\" was what you call a \"span\", sort of\nunconsciously, I guess because the common measure in Brazil (called \"um\npalmo\") assumes the outstretched hand. The measurements do seem to make\nmore sense if we take a hand to mean the outstretched hand, though the\nother option, from the heel of the hand to the tip of the fingers, would\nalso seem to give reasonable values.\n\nWA> Another thing we need to know before we can reach any definite\nWA> conclusions is whether the units of measure Horn is using are standard\nWA> (like current English units such as the foot) or not. In the latter\nWA> case, each person would use his or her own foot to measure out a\nWA> length, to continue with the same example.\n\nI think we can be pretty certain that they are not standard, at least as\nused in everyday talk. Standardization would imply measuring devices, which\nI don't think we've seen at all. So we should take all these measurements\nas approximate.\n\nFernando" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Fernando Q. Gouvea \nDepartment of Mathematics Editor, FOCUS and MAA Online\nColby College http://www.maa.org\nWaterville, ME 04901\nfqgouvea at colby.edu http://www.colby.edu/math\n==========================================================\n\nNihilism should commence with oneself.\n\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] } ] }