{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/whorl/873", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "whorl", "thread": { "id": 873, "subject": "Digest whorl.v010.n138", "messages": 3, "voices": 3, "first": "2000-07-24T20:16:55+00:00", "last": "2000-07-25T08:29:34+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "akt", "address": "akt at attglobal.net" }, "date": "2000-07-24T20:16:55+00:00", "subject": "(whorl) Re: Digest whorl.v010.n138", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Said Wombat, entirely correctly:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Remember that Silk was genetically programmed to be an exceptional\nleader.\nOnce Horn took over Silk's body, he apparently gained that ability,\ntoo,\nwhich is why the Gaonese made him Rajan, swore eternal loyalty to him,\nand\nso forth.\n\nBefore his \"death\", Horn can't buy a break. After his rebirth, he's a\ndemigod. Whatever genes Silk had, they're the pure product." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Indeed. And there's the extraordinary physical prowess, the ability with\na sword. The DNA in the physical body took care of that.\n\nBut, too, Horn has been touched by the angels (and I do realize how\nrevoltingly prime-time TV this sounds). They have given him the ability\nto bond with an inhuma to complete\"astral travel\" and to do what seems\nlike \"magic tricks\" with his sword etc. when he is there. I think that\nHorn/Silk/ [maybe Sev too?] can do some magic tricks even when *not* in\nprojection, though one of you completists will have to prove it since\nI'm comatose.\n\n-alga\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Josh Levitan", "address": "josh_levitan at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2000-07-25T06:47:53+00:00", "subject": "(whorl) Re: Digest whorl.v010.n138", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "*SPOILER SPACE*\n*SPOILER SPACE*\n*SPOILER SPACE*\n*SPOILER SPACE*\n*SPOILER SPACE*\n*SPOILER SPACE*\n*SPOILER SPACE*\n*SPOILER SPACE*\n*SPOILER SPACE*\n*SPOILER SPACE*\n*SPOILER SPACE*\n*SPOILER SPACE*\n*SPOILER SPACE*\n*SPOILER SPACE*\n*SPOILER SPACE*\n*SPOILER SPACE*" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Alex David Groce wrote:\n1. The inhumi's secret (maybe) becomes a little clearer, in some\naspects: Krait's _mother_ drank from Sinew, and I believe it may be\nthat when the inhumi spawn their children take their spirit (in some\nsense) from (a particular, I assume) victim of the parent." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think that's the case. I do think it has become a bit clearer, \nalthough not crystal clear yet. And unfortunately, all evidence seems to \npoint to the \"Do Unto Others Theory\" as being extremely likely to being \"the \nsecret.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "5. The parallels with Severian are growing stronger and more\ninteresting: (1) Horn(/Silk) is now \"accidentally\" enacting sacraments\n(the Eucharist at the Neighbors' table is my favorite scene from IGJ);\n(2) he has his own sword; (3) he's actually been mistaken for a\ntorturer (we're reminded that a Patera's costume is not unlike that of\na torturer)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And that he seeminly subconsciously reshapes his black sword into a \nTorturer's sword, presumably because of the aspects of Severian/the \nConciliator/The Outsider that were part of Silk and are now merged with \nHorn.\n\nFernando Q. Gouvea " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I haven't made up my mind about this one... Is Wolfe saying that *all*\ninhumi have essentially human spirits, or that some get to that point after\nextensive (and friendly) contact with humans? Or is contact with *Silk*\nnecessary? (After all, we have only two points of evidence...)\n\nThe inhumi seem to be spiritual (as well as physical) chamaleons. One might\nconjecture that they are all semi-human in spirit, but the slave masters in\nGreen wouldn't be very clearly human while the ones who live in Blue are\ncloser." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think it's a combination of things. One, their spirits are at least \npartially comprised of whatever they're feeding on. When Jahlee(? I've had \nabout five hours of sleep in the past few days, so my memory's a little hazy \nat this point, and a marathon reading session didn't help, but I'm pretty \nsure it was Jahlee and not Fava) is asked by Horn what the inhumi who fed on \nthe Neighbors would have been like, she says \"Wonderful,\" or something to \nthat effect. Also, I believe that both Fava and Jahlee are striving to be \ngood \"people,\" to overcome their inherently bad nature, like Severian (and \nSilk and Horn, for that matter), so that their true spirits are human or \nvery close to it, rather than reptilian in nature." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Another question: if the inhumi eventually become close copies of those\nthey prey on, shouldn't the inhumi be fighting among themselves now? After\nall, this characteristic of humanity is strongly emphasized in the book." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Great question..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Alga wrote:\nSubject: Does Horn Know He is Silk?\n\nI think he does and he doesn't. Horn practically worshipped Silk as a\nboy, wrote a book about him, has invested much of his life in\nperpetuating his myth and doesn't feel up to \"walking in his shoes.\" He\nknows that it is his--Horn's--personality in this body, however much\nOreb may squawk. Nevertheless, parts of Silk are left, just as you can\nnever erase a program completely from your computer." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's also pretty apparent that he knows he's in Silk's body. The people in \nGaon thought he was Silk and that's why they made him their ruler; people \non cities all over Blue and Green think he's Silk; Oreb calls him Silk, \netc. He makes disingenuous comments that he's not Silk, that Oreb's \nconfused, etc. However, this is clearly meant in the spiritual sense, and I \ndon't think he's entirely right there. Horn spends a great deal of time in \nOBW talking about how he's the only one who doesn't know where Silk is. And \nwe know why now -- as the female neighbor said, his spirit was dying and she \nputs him in Silk's body. But, even though Horn seems to have picked up some \nincredible powers that Silk/Severian/The Conciliator had, he doesn't think \nhe is Silk. And, in a sense he's not, exactly, so he's truthful when he \nsays he isn't. He's also a humble person, and doesn't think he can measure \nup to Silk, even though his personality has become merged with Silk/Pas/The \nOutsider/The Conciliator/The Autarch/Severian and he is measuring up." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Nicholas Gevers wrote:\n\nI've mentioned this before, but now that many people\nhave read IGJ, perhaps I can get more comment: I\nstrongly believe that Horn's visit to Nessus takes\nplace at the same time as the opening chapter of THE\nSHADOW OF THE TORTURER. Clue: Horn and company need to\nbe guided into the Citadel, so the guard at the\nCitadel's gate, Badour, abandons his post to accompany\nthem; when Severian and his friends try to return to\nthe Matachin Tower in Chapter One of SHADOW, they find\nthe guard gone, with no explanation for his absence.\nVery probably, Horn missed meeting the apprentice\nSeverian by only a short time. I should add that in\nhis NOVA EXPRESS interview (1998), Wolfe said that THE\nBOOK OF THE SHORT SUN would \"take us into the world of\nSeverian's childhood\"; it seems certain that just this\nhas happened." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thanks so much, Nick. I felt this, but couldn't put my finger on it. \nThey're in Nessus right before the Sun goes out. The Duko recognizes his \nhouse, but it's collapsed and has been for some time, so the Colony ship is \nlong gone. The people that Horn and company encounter, the guard, the \nomophage, the lochage, are those from Severian's time. I wonder why Horn \ndidn't encounter Severian, though. Severian certainly seemed to encounter \nhimself often enough in one form or another throughout TBOTNS.\n\nAnd now something of my own...\n\nThe only complaints that I have about IGJ are due to Wolfe's insanely good \nwriting ability. For a book entitled \"In Green's Jungles,\" we get very \nlittle of Green's jungles. He continues to hint around (maddeningly) the \nInhumi secret. And, other than the very brief scene we get when the \nNeighbor female puts his spirit in Silk's body, we get nothing at all, \nreally, about the Whorl. It's gonna be a long seven months until the final \nbook...\n\nI was also a bit curious why Horn screws around with Hide so much. You'd \nthink a loving father would tell his son who he is rather than wait for him \nto figure it out... That puzzled me a bit.\n\nNarwhal" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Alex David Groce", "address": "alex_groce at gs246.sp.cs.cmu.edu" }, "date": "2000-07-25T08:29:34+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) Re: Digest whorl.v010.n138", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Narwhal said:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I was also a bit curious why Horn screws around with Hide so much. You'd \nthink a loving father would tell his son who he is rather than wait for him \nto figure it out... That puzzled me a bit." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think it's the same reason why the Neighbors won't tell Horn about\ntheir gods: it's better if he comes to figure it out for himself (with\nsome hints).\n\nThat the Neighbors aren't completely forthcoming seems not so much to\nsuggest (as Adam speculated) that they believe each race should stick\nto its own gods as that they believe the Outsider (by whatever name\nthey know Him) is in the process of revealing Himself to Horn as it\nis, and that it isn't their place to, say, disillusion him about Pas." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "\"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.\" John 8:32\n--\nAlex David Groce (agroce+ at cs.cmu.edu)\nPh.D. Student, Carnegie Mellon University - Computer Science Department\n8112 Wean Hall (412)-268-3066\nhttp://www.cs.cmu.edu/~agroce\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] } ] }