{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/whorl/884", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "whorl", "thread": { "id": 884, "subject": "Digest whorl.v011.n002", "messages": 3, "voices": 3, "first": "2000-07-30T17:24:05+00:00", "last": "2000-08-01T08:46:42+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Ian Smith", "address": "iancsmith at 4unet.co.uk" }, "date": "2000-07-30T17:24:05+00:00", "subject": "(whorl) Re: Digest whorl.v011.n002", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hi, I'm new to the list contribution-wise, although I've been listening (&\nlearning) for a while now.\nFinally my copy of IGJ has arrived, and I've been able to read all the\nrecent posts, so I thought it might be worth asking a question which I don't\nthink anyone has got around to discussing yet.\n\nNo-one seems to have queried yet the reason for the sudeen change in Horn\nbetween the first two volumes. At the end of OBW we leave Horn still\nwallowing to some extent in self-loathing, still questioning whether he\nshould be writing his book. At the start of IGJ this has disapppeared, and\nthroughout he confines himself to minor self-depreceatory remarks (very much\nin the manner of Silk...). As the time lapse between the end of writing the\nend of OBW and the start of OGJ is purportedly very short (I think there are\nhints that it is only around 2 days?) what as caused this transformation?\nCould it have something to do with the mysterious encounter in the woods\nbefore Horn meets brother and sister?\n\n\"I found him in he forest, sitting in the dark under the trees. I could not\nsee him, it was too dark to see anything. But I knelt beside him, and lay\nmy head upon his knee, and he comforted me.\"(OBW p.378)\n\nAt first I thought this was another neighbor encounter, but in IGJ Horn says\nhe hasn't encountered them since they moved him to a new body. It could\nalso be a particularly obtuse dream sequence, I suppose. Any ideas?\n\n\nIan\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "William Ansley", "address": "wansley at warwick.net" }, "date": "2000-08-01T00:09:59+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) Re: Digest whorl.v011.n002", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 6:24 PM +0100 7/30/00, Ian Smith wrote:\nNo-one seems to have queried yet the reason for the sudeen change in Horn\nbetween the first two volumes. At the end of OBW we leave Horn still\nwallowing to some extent in self-loathing, still questioning whether he\nshould be writing his book. At the start of IGJ this has disapppeared, and\nthroughout he confines himself to minor self-depreceatory remarks (very much\nin the manner of Silk...). As the time lapse between the end of writing the\nend of OBW and the start of OGJ is purportedly very short (I think there are\nhints that it is only around 2 days?) what as caused this transformation?\nCould it have something to do with the mysterious encounter in the woods\nbefore Horn meets brother and sister?\n\n\"I found him in he forest, sitting in the dark under the trees. I could not\nsee him, it was too dark to see anything. But I knelt beside him, and lay\nmy head upon his knee, and he comforted me.\"(OBW p.378)\n\nAt first I thought this was another neighbor encounter, but in IGJ Horn says\nhe hasn't encountered them since they moved him to a new body. It could\nalso be a particularly obtuse dream sequence, I suppose. Any ideas?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Actually, Adam Stephanides noted the change:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 10:29 AM -0700 7/23/00, Adam Stephanides wrote:\nThe Horn of OBW resembles the non-apotheosized Severian: someone who\nfeels strongly, suffers greatly, and is very human, to the point of\nbeing unsympathetic. The Horn of IGJ is much more like Silk in more\nthan a physical sense; he's clearly a good man, and a dispenser of\nwisdom and good counsel, while humbly insisting all the time that he is\nno such thing. I have to admit that as a protagonist I prefer the first\nmodel to the second." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And, in response, I made a speculation much like yours:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 11:40 PM -0400 7/23/00, William Ansley wrote:\nI agree that the Horn that narrates OBW seems to be significantly \ndifferent from the Horn that narrates IGJ. This makes me wonder what \nhappened to cause the change. It seems to me that it may have \nsomething to do with the very odd section towards the very end of \nOBW where Horn's identity seems to become confused with Babbie's and \nHorn meets the little boy and girl who are named Brother and Sister. \nI readily admit that I didn't understand the section of OBW at all \nand that I am disappointed that it wasn't explicated at all in IGJ." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think the section of the book that you quote from is probably \nimportant, perhaps only because it is so incomprehensible. I hope \nthat we will receive a little more help in teasing out what is really \ngoing on here in RttW, but I don't expect much help if any will \nactually be forthcoming.\n\nThen before I got around to posting this message, alga replied to the \nthe same message:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 10:46 PM -0400 7/31/00, Alice Turner wrote:\nNo, I think it is, as has been discussed quite recently, Horn's transfer\nto Silk's body, with Silk's powerful gene-spliced leadership DNA having\nan effect on those he encounters. I'm not quite sure from your post that\nyou have finished IGJ--this will become clearer." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "alga,\n\nI think you are missing the point here. The writer of both OBW and \nIGJ is the same version of Horn, the one that has come back from _The \nWhorl_ looking a lot like Silk, however he got that way. But his \nnarrative voice differs considerably, at least to me and Adam and \nIan, from the first book to the second. So whatever happened to cause \nthat change (if the change is real) had to happen between (or close \nto) the end of OBW and the beginning of IGJ." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "William Ansley\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Alex David Groce", "address": "alex_groce at gs246.sp.cs.cmu.edu" }, "date": "2000-08-01T08:46:42+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) Re: Digest whorl.v011.n002", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "William said:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "alga," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think you are missing the point here. The writer of both OBW and \nIGJ is the same version of Horn, the one that has come back from _The \nWhorl_ looking a lot like Silk, however he got that way. But his \nnarrative voice differs considerably, at least to me and Adam and \nIan, from the first book to the second. So whatever happened to cause \nthat change (if the change is real) had to happen between (or close \nto) the end of OBW and the beginning of IGJ." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree with this strongly. In my opinion the change stems at least\npartly from something (fairly) simple: Horn is no longer ruling a city\n\"as Silk.\" Horn is freed to become something more like a holy man\nprecisely because he is no longer in the false position of officially\n_being_ Silk. Horn's reluctance to identify himself with a man he\nsees as, unlike himself, good is key to his actually becoming a very\ngood man himself. Another couple of things: (1) he's come very close\nto death by the inhumi--Wolfe's characters always grow quite a bit\nwhen they willingly face death and (2) I think he's much more at peace\nnow that he's without his concubines and is being faithful to Nettle\n(and Seawrack!)" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "\"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.\" John 8:32\n--\nAlex David Groce (agroce+ at cs.cmu.edu)\nPh.D. Student, Carnegie Mellon University - Computer Science Department\n8112 Wean Hall (412)-268-3066\nhttp://www.cs.cmu.edu/~agroce\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] } ] }