{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/whorl/889", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "whorl", "thread": { "id": 889, "subject": "Impressions, riddles, etc.", "messages": 2, "voices": 2, "first": "2000-07-31T22:46:03+00:00", "last": "2000-08-01T11:49:09+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Alice Turner", "address": "pei047 at attglobal.net" }, "date": "2000-07-31T22:46:03+00:00", "subject": "(whorl) Impressions, riddles, etc.", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Ian Smith\" " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hi Ian, and welcome," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "No-one seems to have queried yet the reason for the sudeen change in\nHorn\nbetween the first two volumes. At the end of OBW we leave Horn still\nwallowing to some extent in self-loathing, still questioning whether\nhe\nshould be writing his book. At the start of IGJ this has\ndisapppeared, and\nthroughout he confines himself to minor self-depreceatory remarks\n(very much\nin the manner of Silk...). As the time lapse between the end of\nwriting the\nend of OBW and the start of OGJ is purportedly very short (I think\nthere are\nhints that it is only around 2 days?) what as caused this\ntransformation?\nCould it have something to do with the mysterious encounter in the\nwoods\nbefore Horn meets brother and sister?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No, I think it is, as has been discussed quite recently, Horn's transfer\nto Silk's body, with Silk's powerful gene-spliced leadership DNA having\nan effect on those he encounters. I'm not quite sure from your post that\nyou have finished IGJ--this will become clearer." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"I found him in he forest, sitting in the dark under the trees. I\ncould not\nsee him, it was too dark to see anything. But I knelt beside him, and\nlay\nmy head upon his knee, and he comforted me.\"(OBW p.378)\n\nAt first I thought this was another neighbor encounter, but in IGJ\nHorn says\nhe hasn't encountered them since they moved him to a new body. It\ncould\nalso be a particularly obtuse dream sequence, I suppose. Any ideas?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It is Babbie speaking here. It is probably Horn's fever-dream, but maybe\nnot. Babbie is going to turn up again in the third volume (thank\ngoodness, I missed him) and we'll know more.\n\nHi Wombat," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 12:04 PM 7/29/00 -0400, vizcacha wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Second, and more importantly (and here we are getting close to the\ntrue\nsecret), there are actually no inhumi. There is only, poignantly, \"a\ngirl\ntrapped in the body of a blood-drinking reptile.\" The inhumi only\nhave\n\"spirits\" because their victims have spirits, only have intelligence\nbecause\ntheir victims have intelligence, and so on." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't think this point has been made here: The inhumi seem\nspecifically\nto be telepathic reptiles tht developed their telepathy to enhance\ntheir\npredation. It seems likely that the assumption of human\ncharacteristics is\na side-effect of this telepathic ability. I can't tell if they are\ncapable\nof true shape-shifting; their ability to pose as humans is certainly\nenhanced by, and may be completely, telepathic projection. Note that\nthis\ndoes *not* seem to be part of what Krait told Horn on Green, since\nHorn\ndoesn't realize this until he sees the camouflaged hunters in Goan." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "They are shapeshifters only to a degree and I don't think it's fully\n\"telepathic.\" Remember three things: They cannot change their density; a\ncareful upclose look, especially at their limbs and hair by someone who\nknows what to look for, will give them away; they are cold-blooded and\ncannot fake otherwise. Horn has been given the ability to know them\nalmost at once, but Fava and Jahlee are very careful not to get too\nclose to any human. This is somewhat important to the plot." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It seems that Incanto's travel between worlds is a combination of the\ninhumi telepathic projection and the Vanished People's indeterminate\nreality." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Again, I discount \"telepathy,\" except on an elementary level--\"charisma\"\nmight be more like it. This is a gift from the Vanished People, I think,\nand meant, in some mysterious manner, to bring humans and inhumi\ntogether, since neither can do it alone. (Though I guess the VP can.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jahlee describes the\npursuit of Horn at the end of OBW, and how the inhumi all felt they\nshould\nkill him, but each hoped that another would do it first. They feel\nthis way\nout of gratitude and also, I think, because the people whose blood\nthey have\nabsorbed would not be quick to kill either. Few are eager to cast the\nfirst\nstone, sinful or not. Result, Horn escapes." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, also, the inhumi are strongly biologically conditioned not to\nkill\ntheir prey. In \"nature\", they will feed on a victim repeatedly over\nthe\ncourse of years rather than kill. If the inhumi surrounding the Rajan\nat\nthe end of _Blue_ have not fed from killers, they will not have\n\"learned\"\nhow to kill, themselves." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No, you really can't say that. Horn had to clean the sewers, with\nthousands of people dead from inhumu greed. Unless that was a dream, and\nI don't think it was." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'd go a step further: If all the inhumi are treated as human by all\nhumans, they will *become* human. But I think there's one more twist\nto the\nsecret coming, and I don't know what it is. So far, Wolfe has\noverdelivered\non every promise of the narrative; I'd like to think he's capable of\noverdelivering on the promise of the secret of the inhumi as well." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't quite follow. But your second sentence has been brought up over\nand over on the list, and I still think it is too simplistic. So sue me.\n\nAsked Raymond:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I have a quick question. Why did Silk agree to become a part of Pas?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Is" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "there an explanation in the Long Sun books? Just wondering." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "We have absolutely, positively no proof that he did. This was only a\nconjecture of the pre Horn/Pas Horn that it MIGHT have happened.\n\nWelcome, Muskrat, and don't be scared of Nutria--his fangs are mostly\nfor show:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I have to wonder whether you all are making life more\ndifficult for him. Does he read these archives?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No.\n\n-alga\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Kevin J. Maroney", "address": "kmaroney at crossover.com" }, "date": "2000-08-01T11:49:09+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) Impressions, riddles, etc.", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 10:46 PM 7/31/00 -0400, Alga wrote:\nThey are shapeshifters only to a degree and I don't think it's fully\n\"telepathic.\" Remember three things: They cannot change their density; a\ncareful upclose look, especially at their limbs and hair by someone who\nknows what to look for, will give them away; they are cold-blooded and\ncannot fake otherwise. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Casting back, I seem to remember something in _Blue_ about the inhumi\nchanging shape to travel between the worlds. So they probably do *really*\nshapeshift mildly. But I think the projective telepathy is real; Incanto's\ndiscussion of watching an inhuma die indicates that there's something more\nthan just physical shapeshifting going on. \n\nThat said, the projective telepathy is far from perfect; that's obvious.\nThey emulate their prey, but not well enough to fool someone who knows what\nto look for. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "No, you really can't say that. Horn had to clean the sewers, with\nthousands of people dead from inhumu greed. Unless that was a dream, and\nI don't think it was." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think it was a dream, either. But I think that the inhumi of the\nCity killed lots of humans not deliberately but out of exhaustion--they\nreflect the cruelty visted on them by the Vanished People and work (and\ndrain) their humans to death, but do not necessarily set out to murder them. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I'd go a step further: If all the inhumi are treated as human by all\nhumans, they will *become* human. But I think there's one more twist\nto the secret coming, and I don't know what it is. So far, Wolfe has\noverdelivered on every promise of the narrative; I'd like to think he's\ncapable of overdelivering on the promise of the secret of the inhumi \nas well." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't quite follow. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think that throughout the narrative of _Long Sun_ and _Short Sun_, Wolfe\nhas set up narrative expectations. He then, pretty consistently, has\nfulfilled those expectations in ways that, I feel, surpassed expectations. \n\nWolfe has spent a tremendous amount of narrative energy building up the\n\"secret of the inhumi\". I have a hard time believing the secret is\nanything we could guess. Hence, I think that the secret encompasses the\nidea that humans can rid themselves of the threat of the inhumi by acts of\nloving kindness, but I have faith that it involves something much bigger. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But your second sentence has been brought up over\nand over on the list, and I still think it is too simplistic. So sue me." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You'll be hearing from my lawyer. " }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Wombat, a.k.a. Kevin Maroney kmaroney at crossover.com\nKitchen Staff Supervisor, New York Review of Science Fiction\nhttp://www.nyrsf.com\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] } ] }