{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/whorl/896", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "whorl", "thread": { "id": 896, "subject": "Green Thoughts", "messages": 3, "voices": 3, "first": "2000-08-02T10:46:36+00:00", "last": "2000-08-02T23:18:10+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Joel Priddy", "address": "mossmail at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2000-08-02T10:46:36+00:00", "subject": "(whorl) Green Thoughts", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ahoy, ahoy,\n\nI thoroughly enjoyed IGJ, and have since thoroughly\nenjoyed catching up on the discussion here. Here's my\ntwo cents...\n\n\nThe Inhumi Secret:\nAlthough I wish it were otherwise, I left IGJ with the\ndistinct impression that the Golden Rule was the\nsecret of the inhumi. All of the business with inhumi\nfeeling that they were human spirits caught in vampire\nbodies, and wanting nothing more than to be fully\nhuman, seemed to be leading up to it (Although I guess\nit's significant that Jahlee can't give up her little\nlove-nips when in Nessus). But the clincher was when\nHorn is talking to Hide about the inhumi, and Jahlee\ninterrupts him at some point, and basically states the\nGolden Rule thing , and Horn replies with \"I wasn't\ngoing to say that, and I never would say that.\" Which\nI take to mean that saying it would break his oath.\n\nAlthough maybe he would never say that because he\nthinks its a silly idea too, but that wasn't how I\nread it.\n\nAlso, one of the earlier convincing arguments against\nthe Golden Rule being the secret was that it was\nimpractical to employ, and IGJ states several times\nthat the secret is impractical. Unwieldy, as it were.\n\nOh, and then there's the whole Eucharist thing... I\nrolled my eyes when I first read the scene. It seemed\nto me that Wolfe was getting a little lazy and too\ndirect when it came to the Catholic references. But it\njust occurred to me to project it onto the inhumi.\nHumans participate in a pretend blood-sharing ritual\nto pretend to be closer to Divine Nature. Inhumi\nparticipate in a real blood-sharing ritual in order to\nreally participate in human nature. So they become a\ndegraded parallel to our own striving for Grace, which\nis accomplished via the Golden Rule.\n\nMuch of IGJ seems to be about showing us that the\ninhumi are worthy of charity. We see that Horn's\nrelationship to Krait wasn't the exception brought on\nby Krait being Sinewy, but could be the rule. If Horn\ncan just keep adopting inhumi...\n\nReverence of Pas:\nI don't think we can be thinking about Pas as being\njust a disembodied Typhon anymore. We all know that\npower corrupts, and absolute power corrupts\nabsolutely, but it seems that divine power makes you\nindistinguishable from God, and therefore you sorta\nbecome a part of God. Kypris is a precedent here, but\nWolfe stories are full of things imitating things so\nwell that they become what they were imitating. Time\nturning our lies into truths, and such. This, plus the\npossible addition of Outsider-inspired Silk into his\nsystem may make Pas an entity worthy of reverence. \n\nOreb in the dream projections:\nI'm sorry, but I just can't stop think of Heckel and\nJeckel (sp?), the cartoon birds. No matter how I try\nto picture Oreb during his feathered dwarf episodes, I\ncan't get past cartoon imagery. In my weaker moments\nI even picture him with the stub of a cigar and\nthree-fingered gloves.\n\n\ncephalothorax" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Stephanides", "address": "adamsteph at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2000-08-02T22:56:33+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) Green Thoughts", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Joel Priddy wrote:\n\nThe Inhumi Secret:\nAlthough I wish it were otherwise, I left IGJ with the\ndistinct impression that the Golden Rule was the\nsecret of the inhumi. [snip] But the clincher was when\nHorn is talking to Hide about the inhumi, and Jahlee\ninterrupts him at some point, and basically states the\nGolden Rule thing , and Horn replies with \"I wasn't\ngoing to say that, and I never would say that.\" Which\nI take to mean that saying it would break his oath." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The actual passage is:\n\n\t \"You sell your own kind to us for weapons and treasure,\"\n\tshe told him [Hide] almost apologetically, \"and your cruelty\n\tand the more numerous you are, the crueler and more violent you\n\tare. Your cruelty and your violence strengthen us.\"\n\t ...\n\t \"Ask this man you call your father. He'll tell you.\"\n\t I said, \"He hasn't, and he won't.\" (380-81)\n\nBut in fact Horn has told Hide that human cruelty and violence\nstrengthen the inhumi, in his discussion of why they shouldn't kill\nJahlee. (354) So what Horn won't tell Hide must be something else,\nperhaps Jahlee's deterministic view of human nature. And since Horn has\ntold it, it can't be the secret.\n\n--Adam\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "William Ansley", "address": "wansley at warwick.net" }, "date": "2000-08-02T23:18:10+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) Green Thoughts", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 10:46 AM -0700 8/2/00, cephalothorax (Joel Priddy \n) wrote:\nOreb in the dream projections:\nI'm sorry, but I just can't stop think of Heckel and\nJeckel (sp?), the cartoon birds. No matter how I try\nto picture Oreb during his feathered dwarf episodes, I\ncan't get past cartoon imagery." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Of course! I knew that Wolfe's description of the \"dream Oreb\" \nreminded me of something. I bet it's deliberate; Wolfe has used \ncartoon imagery more than once before." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In my weaker moments\nI even picture him with the stub of a cigar and\nthree-fingered gloves." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Now you're being silly. Cartoon birds don't wear gloves! But I \nremember the cigar.\n\n\"I say old bean, Silk good!\"\n\nWilliam Ansley\n\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] } ] }