{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/whorl/913", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "whorl", "thread": { "id": 913, "subject": "IGJ Thoughts", "messages": 4, "voices": 3, "first": "2000-08-09T11:14:14+00:00", "last": "2000-08-09T22:55:59+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jim Jordan", "address": "jbjordan at gnt.net" }, "date": "2000-08-09T11:14:14+00:00", "subject": "(whorl) IGJ Thoughts", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "A few thoughts.\n\n\t1. The neighbor on Green switches the souls of Silk and Horn. That seemed\nclear to me. Horn knows he's in Silk's body, but his respect for Silk and\nhis desire to keep his own identity causes him to avoid thinking about this\nvery much. (How can he NOT know it?). As for mirrors, all cultures have\npolished bronze! \n\n\t2.. Unless I missed something, the switch means Silk's soul came into\nHorn's body. Did he die on Green? Or will we meet him again there?\n\n\t3. Horn's ability to project his soul astrally, and the souls of those\naround him, is a reflex of what the neighbor did to him. He acquired the\nability at that point. But he needs someone who has \"been there\" to do it\nwith. Thus, when Rigoglio is tripping with him, he winds up on Urth.\t I\ndon't think he needs input from inhumi to do it, unless he wants to go to\nGreen. We'll see. After all, as someone asked, why doesn't he visit\nSeawrack or Nettle?\n\n\t3a. Which implies that the neighbors have also been to the Long Sun, since\nthey could switch Horn and Silk. And that's how the original inhumi got to\nthe Long Sun, IMO.\n\n\t4. Part of the secret of the inhumi is that they not only take on human\ncharacteristics when they drink us, but that they acquire \"image of God\"\nsouls as well. Thus, when astrally projecting, their human souls become\nclear; it is what is projected. If they were still animals, they could not\njoin the projection. When our souls are right, theirs will be also. That\nlatter we have known for a long time, as part of the secret. I submit the\nformer is another part of it. I don't know if \"do unto others\" or \"come\nunder law\" is the secret, and as noted by someone, Wolfe probably has\nanother rabbit to pull out of his big hat. The question, as noted, is how\nsuch a kindly resolution of the problem would \"destroy\" the inhumi, since\nthose who become \"good humans\" WANT to do so after a time. But \"destroy\"\ncan be an ambiguous term....\n\n\t5. Horn knows that Pas is not God, not the Increate, not the Outsider. But\nremember, or learn here if you don't know it, that the Bible uses \"god\" for\nelder human beings and for angels also. There are, indeed, such lesser gods\nin the Bible, and in Wolfe's thinking. They are created gods, not the\nIncreated Pancreator Outsider.\n\n\t5a. Horn's problem, which he is outgrowing as Silk did, is in thinking\nthat it is appropriate to render worship to such created gods, instead of\nworshipping the Outsider only. By worship I don't mean mere service, which\none might have to render and which it might be appropriate to render, but I\nmean sacrifice. After the death of Jesus, the only acceptable human\nsacrifice, all animal sacrifice is voided. It becomes an abomination. Wolfe\nas an environmental conservationist surely believes this strongly. Thus,\nHorn needs to mature out of offering animals to any gods. The Outsider\nshows him that bread and wine, not the blood of animals, is what He desires.\n\n\t5b. Outgrowing the slaughter of animals for religious purposes is going to\nbe part of the healing of the human soul, which will also convert the\ninhumi into friendly partners. I think the last line of the book hints at\nthe latter. Horn must learn to love the inhumi. He is slowly doing so.\n\"Love your enemies; Do good to those who despitefully use you.\" -- Jesus.\n\n\t6. Fernando wrote:\nThe inhumi seem to be spiritual (as well as physical) chamaleons. One might\nconjecture that they are all semi-human in spirit, but the slave masters in\nGreen wouldn't be very clearly human while the ones who live in Blue are\ncloser. \n\tNutria: I'd say they learned to be slavemasters from the neighbors. Horn\nsays that the neighbors enslaved the inhumi. As they learn more from\nhumans, they will begin to fight among themselves.\n\tAlso, recall that in OBW we have a sad scene of a chained slave girl.\nHumans also practice slavery. (I'm surprised human sacrifice has not made\nmore of an appearance in these books, as it was common all over the ancient\nworld, and does appear in the Soldier books.)\n\n\t7. Horn's narrative is so disjointed, compared to the Book of Silk that\nNettle edited, that I think Horn never makes it home. His book remains\nunedited. Sad to think. Hope I'm wrong....\n\n\t8. Alga wrote: Horn had to clean the sewers, with thousands of people dead\nfrom inhumu greed. Unless that was a dream, and I don't think it was.\n\tNutria: I had the impression that these people had committed suicide\nrather than serve the inhumi. Wasn't that made clear toward the end of the\nbook?\n\n\t9. On Scylla. A side-note that is probably pregnant: The scarlet sea-beast\nof Revelation, and the Great Whore who sits on its back (Rev. 13, 17).\nSurely that's the imagery. And Seawrack leads men to their doom, as a\nsiren, and \"leads\" Horn to adultery. Part of what he has to overcome is\nthis sin, obviously, and he has not yet done so. Recall also that Horn's\nadultery was a violent rape to start with. We're back to the \"golden rule\"\nbusiness. Humans have to stop being like this, and have to stop letting\nthemselves be influenced by the daughters of Pas. Yet, Seawrack herself is\na likeable character, no? Perhaps she also can be redeemed?\n\tThe original Scylla as a daughter of Pas, Baldandersed into an undine,\nseems right to me. She becomes a servant of Abaia. I don't see any reason\nto think she was a daughter of Abaia adopted by Pas. \n\tAnd since the plan of redemption of the Outsider is the same for the\nneighbors as for humans, it stands to reason that they have their own\nScarlet Whore to deal with. I don't think we have to think of \"downloading\"\nor any such thing to understand this. Rather, it is a matter of parallels\nbetween two worlds, each with the same basic history: Each with its own\nrelationship to the Outsider, it's own Christ, it's own Whore, etc. \n\n\t10. The transition between the books. I think N. Gevers has a point, but\nI'd add that spending time with Brother and Sister is also therapeutic for\nHorn. He gets a family again. \n\nPatera Nutria\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Kevin J. Maroney", "address": "kmaroney at ungames.com" }, "date": "2000-08-09T12:32:32+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) IGJ Thoughts", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 11:14 AM 8/9/00 -0500, Patera Nutria wrote:\n4. Part of the secret of the inhumi is that they not only take on human\ncharacteristics when they drink us, but that they acquire \"image of God\"\nsouls as well. Thus, when astrally projecting, their human souls become\nclear; it is what is projected. If they were still animals, they could not\njoin the projection. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Oreb projects right along with Incanto and Jahlee, but Oreb isn't \"human\". " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Also, recall that in OBW we have a sad scene of a chained slave girl.\nHumans also practice slavery. (I'm surprised human sacrifice has not made\nmore of an appearance in these books, as it was common all over the ancient\nworld, and does appear in the Soldier books.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If I recall correctly, there is some discussion of human sacrifice in _Long\nSun_--it's condemned as an abomination, and at the same time is recognized\nas the most powerful sacrifice. The talking animals--Oreb and the talking\ncat--are assumed to be valuable sacrifices because they are like humans. \n\nWhich, hmm, maybe indicates that Oreb *does* have a human-like soul...." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Wombat, a.k.a. Kevin Maroney kmaroney at ungames.com\nKitchen Staff Supervisor, New York Review of Science Fiction\nhttp://www.nyrsf.com\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jim Jordan", "address": "jbjordan at gnt.net" }, "date": "2000-08-09T13:25:23+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) IGJ Thoughts", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 12:32 PM 8/9/2000 -0400, you wrote:\nAt 11:14 AM 8/9/00 -0500, Patera Nutria wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "4. Part of the secret of the inhumi is that they not only take on human\ncharacteristics when they drink us, but that they acquire \"image of God\"\nsouls as well. Thus, when astrally projecting, their human souls become\nclear; it is what is projected. If they were still animals, they could not\njoin the projection. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Oreb projects right along with Incanto and Jahlee, but Oreb isn't \"human\". " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Good point. Of course, as you note, Oreb talks. Also, there is a distance\nbetween reptiles and mammals that might figure in.\n\nNutria\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Stephanides", "address": "adamsteph at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2000-08-09T22:55:59+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) IGJ Thoughts", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jim Jordan wrote:\n 1. The neighbor on Green switches the souls of Silk and Horn. That seemed\nclear to me." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not to me. What the Neighbor says is \"'I can send your spirit into\nsomeone else, into someone whose own spirit is dying....Then there will\nbe one whole man there, instead of two dying men, one here and another\nthere.'\" (127, my deletion doesn't affect the meaning) Nothing about\nmoving Silk's spirit at all. And the Neighbor doesn't say \"there will\nbe one whole man and one dying man,\" just \"there will be one whole man.\"\n\n--Adam\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] } ] }