Subject: (whorl) IGJ Thoughts

From: Jim Jordan <jbjordan at gnt.net>
Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2000 11:14:14 +0000

A few thoughts.

	1. The neighbor on Green switches the souls of Silk and Horn. That seemed
clear to me. Horn knows he's in Silk's body, but his respect for Silk and
his desire to keep his own identity causes him to avoid thinking about this
very much. (How can he NOT know it?). As for mirrors, all cultures have
polished bronze! 

	2.. Unless I missed something, the switch means Silk's soul came into
Horn's body. Did he die on Green? Or will we meet him again there?

	3. Horn's ability to project his soul astrally, and the souls of those
around him, is a reflex of what the neighbor did to him. He acquired the
ability at that point. But he needs someone who has "been there" to do it
with. Thus, when Rigoglio is tripping with him, he winds up on Urth.	 I
don't think he needs input from inhumi to do it, unless he wants to go to
Green. We'll see. After all, as someone asked, why doesn't he visit
Seawrack or Nettle?

	3a. Which implies that the neighbors have also been to the Long Sun, since
they could switch Horn and Silk. And that's how the original inhumi got to
the Long Sun, IMO.

	4. Part of the secret of the inhumi is that they not only take on human
characteristics when they drink us, but that they acquire "image of God"
souls as well. Thus, when astrally projecting, their human souls become
clear; it is what is projected. If they were still animals, they could not
join the projection. When our souls are right, theirs will be also. That
latter we have known for a long time, as part of the secret. I submit the
former is another part of it. I don't know if "do unto others" or "come
under law" is the secret, and as noted by someone, Wolfe probably has
another rabbit to pull out of his big hat. The question, as noted, is how
such a kindly resolution of the problem would "destroy" the inhumi, since
those who become "good humans" WANT to do so after a time. But "destroy"
can be an ambiguous term....

	5. Horn knows that Pas is not God, not the Increate, not the Outsider. But
remember, or learn here if you don't know it, that the Bible uses "god" for
elder human beings and for angels also. There are, indeed, such lesser gods
in the Bible, and in Wolfe's thinking. They are created gods, not the
Increated Pancreator Outsider.

	5a. Horn's problem, which he is outgrowing as Silk did, is in thinking
that it is appropriate to render worship to such created gods, instead of
worshipping the Outsider only. By worship I don't mean mere service, which
one might have to render and which it might be appropriate to render, but I
mean sacrifice. After the death of Jesus, the only acceptable human
sacrifice, all animal sacrifice is voided. It becomes an abomination. Wolfe
as an environmental conservationist surely believes this strongly. Thus,
Horn needs to mature out of offering animals to any gods. The Outsider
shows him that bread and wine, not the blood of animals, is what He desires.

	5b. Outgrowing the slaughter of animals for religious purposes is going to
be part of the healing of the human soul, which will also convert the
inhumi into friendly partners. I think the last line of the book hints at
the latter. Horn must learn to love the inhumi. He is slowly doing so.
"Love your enemies; Do good to those who despitefully use you." -- Jesus.

	6. Fernando wrote:
The inhumi seem to be spiritual (as well as physical) chamaleons. One might
conjecture that they are all semi-human in spirit, but the slave masters in
Green wouldn't be very clearly human while the ones who live in Blue are
closer. 
	Nutria: I'd say they learned to be slavemasters from the neighbors. Horn
says that the neighbors enslaved the inhumi. As they learn more from
humans, they will begin to fight among themselves.
	Also, recall that in OBW we have a sad scene of a chained slave girl.
Humans also practice slavery. (I'm surprised human sacrifice has not made
more of an appearance in these books, as it was common all over the ancient
world, and does appear in the Soldier books.)

	7. Horn's narrative is so disjointed, compared to the Book of Silk that
Nettle edited, that I think Horn never makes it home. His book remains
unedited. Sad to think. Hope I'm wrong....

	8. Alga wrote: Horn had to clean the sewers, with thousands of people dead
from inhumu greed. Unless that was a dream, and I don't think it was.
	Nutria: I had the impression that these people had committed suicide
rather than serve the inhumi. Wasn't that made clear toward the end of the
book?

	9. On Scylla. A side-note that is probably pregnant: The scarlet sea-beast
of Revelation, and the Great Whore who sits on its back (Rev. 13, 17).
Surely that's the imagery. And Seawrack leads men to their doom, as a
siren, and "leads" Horn to adultery. Part of what he has to overcome is
this sin, obviously, and he has not yet done so. Recall also that Horn's
adultery was a violent rape to start with. We're back to the "golden rule"
business. Humans have to stop being like this, and have to stop letting
themselves be influenced by the daughters of Pas. Yet, Seawrack herself is
a likeable character, no? Perhaps she also can be redeemed?
	The original Scylla as a daughter of Pas, Baldandersed into an undine,
seems right to me. She becomes a servant of Abaia. I don't see any reason
to think she was a daughter of Abaia adopted by Pas. 
	And since the plan of redemption of the Outsider is the same for the
neighbors as for humans, it stands to reason that they have their own
Scarlet Whore to deal with. I don't think we have to think of "downloading"
or any such thing to understand this. Rather, it is a matter of parallels
between two worlds, each with the same basic history: Each with its own
relationship to the Outsider, it's own Christ, it's own Whore, etc. 

	10. The transition between the books. I think N. Gevers has a point, but
I'd add that spending time with Brother and Sister is also therapeutic for
Horn. He gets a family again. 

Patera Nutria

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---

From: Kevin J. Maroney <kmaroney at ungames.com>
Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2000 12:32:32 +0000

At 11:14 AM 8/9/00 -0500, Patera Nutria wrote:
>join the projection. 

Oreb projects right along with Incanto and Jahlee, but Oreb isn't "human". 

>world, and does appear in the Soldier books.)

If I recall correctly, there is some discussion of human sacrifice in _Long
Sun_--it's condemned as an abomination, and at the same time is recognized
as the most powerful sacrifice. The talking animals--Oreb and the talking
cat--are assumed to be valuable sacrifices because they are like humans. 

Which, hmm, maybe indicates that Oreb *does* have a human-like soul....

-- 
Wombat, a.k.a. Kevin Maroney kmaroney at ungames.com
Kitchen Staff Supervisor, New York Review of Science Fiction
http://www.nyrsf.com

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From: Jim Jordan <jbjordan at gnt.net>
Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2000 13:25:23 +0000

>Oreb projects right along with Incanto and Jahlee, but Oreb isn't "human". 

Good point. Of course, as you note, Oreb talks. Also, there is a distance
between reptiles and mammals that might figure in.

Nutria

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From: Adam Stephanides <adamsteph at earthlink.net>
Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2000 22:55:59 +0000

Jim Jordan wrote:

> clear to me.

Not to me.  What the Neighbor says is "'I can send your spirit into
someone else, into someone whose own spirit is dying....Then there will
be one whole man there, instead of two dying men, one here and another
there.'" (127, my deletion doesn't affect the meaning)  Nothing about
moving Silk's spirit at all.  And the Neighbor doesn't say "there will
be one whole man and one dying man," just "there will be one whole man."

--Adam