{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/whorl/919", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "whorl", "thread": { "id": 919, "subject": "Inhumi Secret", "messages": 4, "voices": 3, "first": "2000-08-09T20:06:15+00:00", "last": "2000-08-10T09:45:41+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jim Jordan", "address": "jbjordan at gnt.net" }, "date": "2000-08-09T20:06:15+00:00", "subject": "(whorl) Inhumi Secret", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\tI submit for your consideration that the secret is that men must die for\nthe inhumi. They must learn to die for each other, but in this narrative,\nalso to die for the inhumi. It's not just the golden rule, but being\nwilling to lay down your life for your enemies, as Jesus did.\n\tI submit that the eucharist the Outsider leads Horn to perform indicates\nthat this will turn out to be the answer. That's the meaning of the\neucharist, for by eating the death of Jesus into ourselves, we become able\nto die for our enemies as He died for His.\n\tThat's why the secret is so hard. Humans will find this the hardest thing\nof all to do. It's harder than loving each other, because it's easy to love\nthe lovable. Or, it's the toughest kind of love.\n\tWhen humans become willing to die for their enemies, and inhumi acquire\nthis characteristic from them, the inhumi will be willing to die rather\nthan destroy humans. This will \"destroy\" the inhumi, though I suspect it\nwill not annihilate them but transform them somehow.\n\tI bet that Horn gives his life for Jahlee before it's all over.\n\tI also bet that when it's all over, the Memoirs of Severian, the Book of\nSilk, and the Book of Horn will be seen as a progression. Severian never\nreally learns much about love, and certainly never dies for anyone. He does\ngrow and mature, but not as much as Silk. Silk makes much more progress,\nbut Horn will make the most. The triptich of their lives will make one\nthematic narrative of personal growth and maturation into Christlikeness.\n\tI cannot help but think of the Casher O'Neill stories of Cordwainer Smith,\nthough I don't know if these influenced Wolfe at all. They deal with\npolitics, spirituality, and religion progressively, as \"On the Gem Planet\"\nis a \"mirror for princes\"; \"On the Wind Planet\" is about conversion; and\n\"On the Sand Planet\" is about the application of that conversion back into\nthe world. In a very broad way, Wolfe's three narratives follow the same\nkinds of themes: in the real world, apart from the real world (on the\nwhorl), and back into the real world. Just a thought.\n\tBut I'll bet I'm right about the secret.\n\nPatera Nutria\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Stephanides", "address": "adamsteph at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2000-08-09T23:11:31+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) Inhumi Secret", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jim Jordan wrote:\n\n I submit for your consideration that the secret is that men must die for\nthe inhumi. They must learn to die for each other, but in this narrative,\nalso to die for the inhumi. It's not just the golden rule, but being\nwilling to lay down your life for your enemies, as Jesus did.\n[snip]\n That's why the secret is so hard. Humans will find this the hardest thing\nof all to do. It's harder than loving each other, because it's easy to love\nthe lovable. Or, it's the toughest kind of love.\n When humans become willing to die for their enemies, and inhumi acquire\nthis characteristic from them, the inhumi will be willing to die rather\nthan destroy humans. This will \"destroy\" the inhumi, though I suspect it\nwill not annihilate them but transform them somehow." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think that this is the secret, for a couple of reasons. Fr one\nthing, it doesn't fit several of the things we know about the secret: it\ndoesn't explain why the inhumi drink human blood, it doesn't have\nanything to do with Krait's mother drinking from Sinew, and it doesn't\nexplain the Neighbor's remark on p. 21.\n\nFor another thing, iirc (I don't have the book with me) in OBW Horn says\nexplicitly that if humans could use the secret it would turn the inhumi\nback into the unintelligent predators they originally were. So if\nhumans did come to \"love the inhumi,\" they would presumably refuse to\napply the secret (since the inhumi have no wish to lose their\nintelligence). \n\n--Adam\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "William Ansley", "address": "wansley at warwick.net" }, "date": "2000-08-09T22:31:36+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) Inhumi Secret", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 8:06 PM -0500 8/9/00, Jim Jordan wrote:\nI submit for your consideration that the secret is that men \nmust die for\nthe inhumi." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Nutria,\n\nYou know, I really like this idea. It seems somehow very right. The \nonly problem with it is that I really find it hard to see how Horn \ncould have used it as a credible threat against the inhumi. They seem \nto have a pretty realistic idea of what humans are capable of, so I \ndon't know why they would be at all worried about Horn telling this \nfact to anyone else. And way would anyone else believe it?\n\nFrankly, after reading IGJ, I no longer believe that Wolfe has any \nintention of directly revealing the secret of the inhumi in the last \nbook, so we will probably be able to keep up this guessing game \nindefinitely.\n\nWilliam Ansley" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "William Ansley\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jim Jordan", "address": "jbjordan at gnt.net" }, "date": "2000-08-10T09:45:41+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) Inhumi Secret", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 10:31 PM 8/9/2000 -0400, you wrote:\nAt 8:06 PM -0500 8/9/00, Jim Jordan wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I submit for your consideration that the secret is that men \nmust die for\nthe inhumi." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Nutria,\n\nYou know, I really like this idea. It seems somehow very right. The \nonly problem with it is that I really find it hard to see how Horn \ncould have used it as a credible threat against the inhumi. They seem \nto have a pretty realistic idea of what humans are capable of, so I \ndon't know why they would be at all worried about Horn telling this \nfact to anyone else. And way would anyone else believe it?\n\nFrankly, after reading IGJ, I no longer believe that Wolfe has any \nintention of directly revealing the secret of the inhumi in the last \nbook, so we will probably be able to keep up this guessing game \nindefinitely." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\tYeah, you're probably right on both counts. That's what happens when you\nstay up too late and get inspired to write a post.\n\tI'm still inclined to think what I wrote may turn out to be a theme in the\nbook, but perhaps not the secret. If the secret is something that Horn\ncould pull out of the hat and apply instantly any time he wants, then it is\nnot something that humans have to mature into, but a technique of some sort.\n\tAnd I agree that we're not going to be TOLD the secret.\n\nNutria\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] } ] }