{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/whorl/939", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "whorl", "thread": { "id": 939, "subject": "Clute's revelation", "messages": 5, "voices": 5, "first": "2000-08-16T00:52:21+00:00", "last": "2000-08-16T11:00:20+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "David Lomax", "address": "dlomax at idirect.com" }, "date": "2000-08-16T01:19:02+00:00", "subject": "(whorl) Clute's revelation", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "vermoulian at yahoo.com wrote" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "SF WEEKLY has just published John Clute's review of IN\nGREEN'S JUNGLES, and (among other remarks of interest)\nClute declares that it is \"reasonably clear\" that\nHorn/Silk is himself an inhumu. Any reactions?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Argh! Clute beat me to it -- maybe others did too. I've been\ndeliberately not reading the list until I could get and read IGJ. Just\nfinished today. On the weekend, while we were on a long car trip, my\ngirlfriend offered to read a couple of chapters to me. Around the\nmiddle of the novel. While she was reading,I suddenly burst out, \"oh,\nmy god!\" When she got over her shock at thinking we were about to get\ninto an accident, she asked what I was talking about. \"What if Silk is\nactually an inhumu?\" I said.\n\nShe doesn't read Wolfe and had no idea what was going on in the novel.\nBut she agreed that it might be a possibility.\n\nAs I read on, I became more and more convinced. I could be unconvinced\nby some dazzling logic, but it sure seems to me that our humble narrator\nmay not be completely human. There are some counter-arguments: Oreb\nstill likes him, for one thing. But what about that bit near the end\nwhen Horn/Silk talks ruefully about his appetite being too great?\n\nSo there I was thinking, hey, maybe nobody else has talked about this.\nMaybe I can make an original contribution to the list instead of just\nlurking all my life. And what happens, but Clute beats me to it. I'll\nget you for this, Clute, if it's the third-last thing I do.\n\nAnd the inhumu secret? Could it just be that if humans gave themselves\nwillingly to the inhumu, then the inhumu would be incapable of killing\nthe humans?\n\nAnd weren't those last few chapters just glorious?\n\nDavid Lomax\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jim Jordan", "address": "jbjordan at gnt.net" }, "date": "2000-08-16T00:52:21+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) Clute's revelation", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 01:19 AM 8/16/2000 -0400, you wrote:\nAs I read on, I became more and more convinced. I could be unconvinced\nby some dazzling logic, but it sure seems to me that our humble narrator\nmay not be completely human. There are some counter-arguments: Oreb\nstill likes him, for one thing. But what about that bit near the end\nwhen Horn/Silk talks ruefully about his appetite being too great?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\tThe appetite stuff is typical of Silk, though. He was always semi-fasting.\n\tI'd like to see some positive evidence for this thesis. The last line of\nthe novel might be a clue, but only with a lot more evidence.\n\nPatera Nutria\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Robert Borski", "address": "rborski at charter.net" }, "date": "2000-08-16T02:12:13+00:00", "subject": "(whorl) Re: Clute's Revelation", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "SF WEEKLY has just published John Clute's review of IN\nGREEN'S JUNGLES, and (among other remarks of interest)\nClute declares that it is \"reasonably clear\" that\nHorn/Silk is himself an inhumu. Any reactions?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "David Lomax has already mentioned the Oreb angle, and it seems hard to\nbelieve that Incanto-the-inhumu could fool the wise bird whereas Quetzal,\nthe Bean and Jahlee couldn't.\n\nYet another contraindication is Horn's handwriting. The inhumi have at best\nterrible writing and Horn/Incanto has handwritten two books, at least the\nfirst of which (and no doubt the second and third) has been read by Horn's\nwife and children with no editorial comment about Horn's rather execrable\npenmanship. Ditto for Inclito's mother, who receives handwritten\ninstructions on how she can remedy her recent ill turn in health (\"Er, what\nare these words, Incanto? 'Necklace of garlic'?\"). And isn't it likely that\nif Horn were able to manipulate his physical appearance, he'd at least try\nto appear fully sighted or without the wound in his side? (Not sure how\nshapeshifting works if you have scars or wounds.) Or that the Neighbors\nwould aid and abet a former vampiric nemesis?\n\nAnd lastly while there is a precedent in Wolfean fiction--Victor Trenchard\nkilling and taking the place of John Marsch in FIFTH HEAD--at least it is\nidentifiable when it happens, something I'm not sure Clute's hornjacking is.\n(Who exactly is subsuming Horn's personality? Krait? Some other inhumu? And\nwhen/where does it occur?)\n\nIn other words list me among the unconvinced (as I am about Silk's suicide,\nsince Catholics that die by their own hand are forbidden not only burial in\nCatholic cemetaries, but Heaven), although I do admit I'm willing to\nconsider further evidence.\n\nRobert Borski\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Kevin J. Maroney", "address": "kmaroney at ungames.com" }, "date": "2000-08-16T10:48:45+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) Re: Clute's Revelation", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 02:12 AM 8/16/00 -0500, you wrote:\nIn other words list me among the unconvinced (as I am about Silk's suicide,\nsince Catholics that die by their own hand are forbidden not only burial in\nCatholic cemetaries, but Heaven), although I do admit I'm willing to\nconsider further evidence." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Me too.\n\nIt is consummately possible that Clute has noticed something I have\nmissed--in fact, I would bet money that he has, many times, in IGJ\nalone--but this just feels wrong. \n\nKevin Maroney\t\tkmaroney at ungames.com\nKitchen Staff Supervisor\tNew York Review of Science Fiction\nhttp://www.nyrsf.com\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Fernando Q. Gouvea", "address": "fqgouvea at colby.edu" }, "date": "2000-08-16T11:00:20+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) Re: Clute's Revelation", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Nah... Even Clute hedges his bets, by saying maybe he's an inhumu (spells\nit wrong, as \"inhuma\"... or does he mean that?), maybe he's an aquastor,\nmaybe something else. My main reaction is why should Wolfe repeat his\neffects? He's already written \"Fifth Head\" and The Book of the New Sun. \n\nI agree completely with alga that having Horn become a better human being\nseems to be central to this novel. One might even imagine an\nInferno/Purgatorio/Paradiso triptych in Severian/Silk/Horn. \n\nFinally, the evidence is all against it. Horn is shown writing, riding\nhorses, using weapons (even the azoth, at one point), all sorts of stuff\nthat inhumi don't do. Oreb likes him. He eats (not much, but he does). To\nsustain Clute's idea one would have to assume not only an unreliable\nnarrator, but a positively misleading one.\n\nFernando" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Fernando Q. Gouvea \nDepartment of Mathematics Editor, FOCUS and MAA Online\nColby College Mathematical Association of America\nWaterville, ME 04901 http://www.maa.org\nfqgouvea at colby.edu \n==========================================================\n\nSecurity check: INTRUDER ALERT!\n\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] } ] }