{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/whorl/965", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "whorl", "thread": { "id": 965, "subject": "Neighbor + Inhumu + One?", "messages": 6, "voices": 5, "first": "2000-08-22T08:26:35+00:00", "last": "2000-08-23T12:19:00+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Alice Turner", "address": "pei047 at attglobal.net" }, "date": "2000-08-22T10:16:28+00:00", "subject": "(whorl) Neighbor + Inhumu + One?", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Nick G:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Drawing on a remark John Clute made a few days ago:\nare we sure of the fate of those inhumi who, however\nlong ago, ingested Neighbor blood and thus became\nequal to the Neighbors in puissance? The inhumi who in\nHorn's time infest the City on Green clearly have a\nrelation to them, but their qualities seem to derive\nfrom their human slaves, the \"inhumans\". Did the\noriginal \"Neighborly inhumi\" survive in some other\nguise? Specifically, are the Neighbors Horn encounters\nnot perhaps inhumi themselves?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " I disagree with almost all the specifics that Pat. Rat puts forth with\nregard to this series, but I agree with him that it is theologically\nconceived. To me, it illustrates the ideas of the second-century heretic\nOrigen (who was consigned to hell on 15 counts of anathema by his fellow\nChurch Fathers) who believed that, as angels could sin and fall, demons\ncould repent and redeem themselves and begin to rise. Instead of a\nstatic and everlasting heaven and hell, there would be a sort of\ncyclical motion with, eventually, all things turning to God. (It's a\nlittle more complex, but that's the general idea.) The system that Wolfe\nhas laid out here is fairly simple: the Neighbors or VPs stand in for\nangels, the inhumi for demons or devils, and human beings are shown\nbeing both noble and outrageously wicked and, especially, quarreling\nincessantly with one another. The ingestion of blood (and the mysterious\n\"secret\") do change the inhumi nature toward that of their\nvictims--what's more we see the naked yearning of all three of the young\ninhumi to be \"real\" girls and boys, to aspire upward toward humanity\n(this would be how Origen put it--humanity is the middle state beween\ndevil and angel).\n\nSo (sorry to be so longwinded), I think the answers to both your\nquestions is no, but with qualifications. I don't think there's going to\nbe any revelation about actual physical change--Harn is not an inhumu in\nany way, IMO, nor are the Neighbors. But I do suspect there is going to\nbe something about partnership. Somebody in the last few days suggested\nthat the visit to Urth was triggered by Horn's working in tandem with\nRigoglio. I doubt it. I think an unhuma(u) must always be present for\nHorn to swing this telekinetic trick (though it is true that the venue\nderived from Rigoglio in this case). And the ability was contributed by\na Neighbor. Still, yours is a more intriguing notion of the \"secret,\"\nthan any of the Golden Rule platitudes offered so far!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Do any others share my impression that Wolfe wishes us\nto equate the City of the Inhumi with Nessus? Are they\ncongruent in being accursed?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Congruent, yes; he practically slams us over the head with it. Accursed,\nhmmm, see above.\n\n-alga\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Alex David Groce", "address": "alex_groce at gs246.sp.cs.cmu.edu" }, "date": "2000-08-22T11:17:22+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) Neighbor + Inhumu + One?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hmmm... Alga's mapping to Origen's ideas is interesting, but I'm not\nconvinced. Universalism doesn't strike me as being particularly\nWolfean, given the number especially of short stories that are quite\ncomfortable in damning a protagonist (\"Bed and Breakfast\" certainly\ndoesn't carry much hint of demonic free will). Also, despite some\nobvious intentional points, a simple mapping of the inhumans to demons\nor the Neighbors to angels seems false--the Neighbors seem more like\npost-Urth Severian, of the \"human\" order of creation, but\ntransfigured. The inhumi are different in that their nature is a\nmirror of their prey (their will is reduced but present) but they are\nin this a biological analogue also of Wolfe's chems and machine\nintelligences--a mirror in this case of their prey rather than their\nmakers, of course. This doesn't strike me as very Origenist, in that\nexcept in Severian's visit to get the New Sun I don't think we see\nanything that is really meant to be of an angelic nature.\n\nOreb: I'm still puzzling over which God rides Oreb--and part of me\nsays \"the Outsider, silly.\" Does \"The Night Chough,\" which I haven't\nread, make this more explicit? I also find it very interesting that\nOreb, who I think we can all agree is very much a Holy Spirit figure,\nis also the primary comic relief in Long and Short Sun. I think this\nis fitting with his Spirit of Truth nature as well, and it reminds me\nvery faintly of the way Muriel Spark and Flannery O'Connor make use of\nterrifying or comical Holy Spirit symbolism.\n\nAnd by the way, unless I'm recalling incorrectly (which is quite\npossible) Origen wasn't precisely \"consigned to hell\"--a number of his\npropsitions (from De Principis mostly, I think) were condemned, but a\nnumber of church figures have defended him as a fundamentally orthodox\nfellow carried away with intellectual speculation at times, and\ncertainly no rebel against Church authority in his day." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "\"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.\" John 8:32\n--\nAlex David Groce (agroce+ at cs.cmu.edu)\nPh.D. Student, Carnegie Mellon University - Computer Science Department\n8112 Wean Hall (412)-268-3066\nhttp://www.cs.cmu.edu/~agroce\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Tim Boolos", "address": "timboolos at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2000-08-22T08:26:35+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) Neighbor + Inhumu + One?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "--- Alice Turner wrote:\n\n*snip* " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " I disagree with almost all the specifics that Pat.\nRat puts forth with\nregard to this series, but I agree with him that it\nis theologically\nconceived. To me, it illustrates the ideas of the\nsecond-century heretic\nOrigen (who was consigned to hell on 15 counts of\nanathema by his fellow\nChurch Fathers) who believed that, as angels could\nsin and fall, demons\ncould repent and redeem themselves and begin to\nrise. Instead of a\nstatic and everlasting heaven and hell, there would\nbe a sort of\ncyclical motion with, eventually, all things turning\nto God. (It's a\nlittle more complex, but that's the general idea.)\nThe system that Wolfe\nhas laid out here is fairly simple: the Neighbors or\nVPs stand in for\nangels, the inhumi for demons or devils, and human\nbeings are shown\nbeing both noble and outrageously wicked and,\nespecially, quarreling\nincessantly with one another. The ingestion of blood\n(and the mysterious\n\"secret\") do change the inhumi nature toward that of\ntheir\nvictims--what's more we see the naked yearning of\nall three of the young\ninhumi to be \"real\" girls and boys, to aspire upward\ntoward humanity\n(this would be how Origen put it--humanity is the\nmiddle state beween\ndevil and angel)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Just a note on Origen. His heresy charges did not\nhave to do with the redeemability or not of demons\n(that is in line with Orthodox Theology), rather with\nthe \"pre-existence\" of souls and a sort of cosmic\nrecycling that Alga alluded to, among other things. \nOrigen was only considered a heretic towards the end\nof his life. His early teachings are still held in\nregard among theologians.\n\nAs far as Inhumu/demon parallel I found their wanting\nto be a 'real' boy or girl (as well as the allusion\nnear the end of OBW to their being no mor dangerous\nthan crocodiles) to be more like the wistful passages\nin C. S. Lewis' \"Screwtape Letters\". Lewis' Screwtape\nrecognizes that humans are superior to the demons and\non occasion wishes he could have some of the human\nadvantages, but also recognizes and uses human\nweakness and tendency to stray to trap and enslave\nthem. Not a perfect allegory, I'll admit, but one\nthat connected a little for me.\n\nI'm enjoying the theological discussions tremendously.\nLike Patera Nutria I am ordained, but in the Eastern\nOrthodox Christian Church which shares many\ntheological notions (and rejects some as well) with\nthe Catholic Church. However, I would not like this\nboard to be exclusively devoted to counting angels on\nthe head of a pin.\n\nEmrys" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jim Jordan", "address": "jbjordan at gnt.net" }, "date": "2000-08-22T22:10:07+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) Neighbor + Inhumu + One?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 11:17 AM 8/22/2000 -0400, you wrote:\n\nHmmm... Alga's mapping to Origen's ideas is interesting, but I'm not\nconvinced. Universalism doesn't strike me as being particularly\nWolfean, given the number especially of short stories that are quite\ncomfortable in damning a protagonist (\"Bed and Breakfast\" certainly\ndoesn't carry much hint of demonic free will). Also, despite some\nobvious intentional points, a simple mapping of the inhumans to demons\nor the Neighbors to angels seems false--the Neighbors seem more like\npost-Urth Severian, of the \"human\" order of creation, but\ntransfigured. The inhumi are different in that their nature is a\nmirror of their prey (their will is reduced but present) but they are\nin this a biological analogue also of Wolfe's chems and machine\nintelligences--a mirror in this case of their prey rather than their\nmakers, of course. This doesn't strike me as very Origenist, in that\nexcept in Severian's visit to get the New Sun I don't think we see\nanything that is really meant to be of an angelic nature." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\tFWIW, I find the inhumi rather like Cordwainer Smith's underpeople in some\nways. I don't think they represent the demonic realm in the symbolic\nsubstructure of the series; rather, they mirror the evil in mankind. A much\ncloser, and very obvious, mirror of angels and demons are the gods of\nmainframe: promixate agents of the all-controlling Pantocrator. The essence\nof the demonic, in Christian thought, is to tempt and to teach falsely, and\nI don't see the inhumi in that role at all. A secondary aspect of the\ndemonic is to oppress, but in Christianity that is definitely secondary\n(while in Manichaean thinking it is primary, since power is the basic\ncategory there); and the inhumi don't get to do much oppressing either; or\nrather, they have learned oppression from their human and neighbor\nassociates. The only thing specifically demonic about them is that they are\nparasites. \n\tAdditionally, I interviewed GW rather closely about his theological\nbeliefs, because I wanted to understand the Memoirs of Severian better. He\nclaims to be fully orthodox as a Roman Catholic, and learned from St.\nThomas and of course Chesterton. Of course, he can USE the more heretical\naspects of Origen's thought in a novel if he chooses, but I don't see real\nevidence for this. He denied employing gnostic thought as the substructure\nof the Severian books, which I had at first thought he was doing -- and of\ncourse, we're in the same fictional universe here. So, I'd be surprised if\nSlimina were right on this.\n\tBTW, thanks from me too, Alga, for the quick list of all the limping\nheroes! Fascinating how frequently the motif is encountered, even though it\nmeans different things in various mythic contexts. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Oreb: I'm still puzzling over which God rides Oreb--and part of me\nsays \"the Outsider, silly.\" Does \"The Night Chough,\" which I haven't\nread, make this more explicit? I also find it very interesting that\nOreb, who I think we can all agree is very much a Holy Spirit figure,\nis also the primary comic relief in Long and Short Sun. I think this\nis fitting with his Spirit of Truth nature as well, and it reminds me\nvery faintly of the way Muriel Spark and Flannery O'Connor make use of\nterrifying or comical Holy Spirit symbolism." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\tI tried to speculate on how Oreb could be \"ridden\" by both Scylla and\nOutsider (and, I suggested, be also related to Kypris). Actually, the\nsolution is quite simple. The Outsider IS God, and is outside the creation.\nThus, He can enter and either override or work with anything inside the\ncreation at any time. The gods of mainframe simply take people over like\nrobots, and I guess Oreb also (on occasion, anyway). The gods are part of a\ncontinuum of being, and are more powerful then men. The Outsider is outside\nthe whole continuum, and is more subtle. Recall The Ruler in \"Westwind,\"\nwho says, \"I prefer not to interfere directly,\" or words to that effect.\nThe Outsider can use Scylla any way He wishes (whether she like is, or is\naware of it, or not), and thus is behind Scylla's riding of Oreb when she\ndoes so.\n\tI don't know if the Spirit as Comic Relief is in Chesterton, but of\ncourse, Christianity as THE Comic Relief is pure Chesterton, and thus a\nhuge part of Wolfe's thinking. Oddly, Wolfe's books end in ways that can\nsuggest tragedy, the pagan opposite of the Divine comedy. But they always\npoint beyond the end of the story to a final happy ending (e.g., the green\nman).\n\tFWIW.\n\nPatera Nutria\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jim Jordan", "address": "jbjordan at gnt.net" }, "date": "2000-08-22T22:14:12+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) Neighbor + Inhumu + One?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 08:26 AM 8/22/2000 -0700, you wrote:\nI'm enjoying the theological discussions tremendously.\nLike Patera Nutria I am ordained, but in the Eastern\nOrthodox Christian Church which shares many\ntheological notions (and rejects some as well) with\nthe Catholic Church. However, I would not like this\nboard to be exclusively devoted to counting angels on\nthe head of a pin.\n\nEmrys" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\tThere's so much in Wolfe that it would be a real shame to discuss only the\ntheological aspects. I've tried to call attention to those aspects here,\njust as a matter of contributing my expertise. I'm wary of overreading\nWolfe along these lines, but I probably fall into that trap anyway -- as do\nall of us in various ways!\n\nPatera Nutria (Presbyterian)\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Clute", "address": "jclute at cix.compulink.co.uk" }, "date": "2000-08-23T12:19:00+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) Neighbor + Inhumu + One?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In-Reply-To: <200008230256.TAA15037 at lists1.best.com>\nNutria:\n To speak very broadly indeed, which I think is sometimes necessary \nwith Wolfe, it does strike me that the tonus (as distinguished from the \nintellectual doctrinal structuring) of Wolfe's major works is anything but \nChristian. Except maybe in certain parts of the book we are now \nconsidering, the melacholia is profound: _In Blue's Waters_ , and many of \nthe later stories, are acts of heroism (it seems) against a very deep \nsadness, which Christians (and others) might put a term to. I myself would \ntend to cod gnosticism here: it feels like the occlusion or bondage of the \nblinding world, to me. \n We may see _Return to the Whorl_ continue the transformations of \ntonus audible (I think) in the current book; but I wouldn't exactly bet on \na triumph of THE comedy.\n But this is a topic without closure. And premature at this point, \nthough it is the sort of consideration all the decipherments must be a \nroad to.\n (I've just now noticed a later message from you which makes it \nvery clear you have some broadly similar thoughts about the subordination \nof all schemas (even those we can legitimately pin on Wolfe himself) to \nthe summae which is the felt work of art, sort of thing.)\n\nBest,\nJohn C \n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] } ] }