Subject: (whorl) Neighbor + Inhumu + One?

From: Alice Turner <pei047 at attglobal.net>
Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 10:16:28 +0000

Nick G:

> Drawing on a remark John Clute made a few days ago:
> are we sure of the fate of those inhumi who, however
> long ago, ingested Neighbor blood and thus became
> equal to the Neighbors in puissance? The inhumi who in
> Horn's time infest the City on Green clearly have a
> relation to them, but their qualities seem to derive
> from their human slaves, the "inhumans". Did the
> original "Neighborly inhumi" survive in some other
> guise? Specifically, are the Neighbors Horn encounters
> not perhaps inhumi themselves?

 I disagree with almost all the specifics that Pat. Rat puts forth with
regard to this series, but I agree with him that it is theologically
conceived. To me, it illustrates the ideas of the second-century heretic
Origen (who was consigned to hell on 15 counts of anathema by his fellow
Church Fathers) who believed that, as angels could sin and fall, demons
could repent and redeem themselves and begin to rise. Instead of a
static and everlasting heaven and hell, there would be a sort of
cyclical motion with, eventually, all things turning to God. (It's a
little more complex, but that's the general idea.) The system that Wolfe
has laid out here is fairly simple: the Neighbors or VPs stand in for
angels, the inhumi for demons or devils, and human beings are shown
being both noble and outrageously wicked and, especially, quarreling
incessantly with one another. The ingestion of blood (and the mysterious
"secret") do change the inhumi nature toward that of their
victims--what's more we see the naked yearning of all three of the young
inhumi to be "real" girls and boys, to aspire upward toward humanity
(this would be how Origen put it--humanity is the middle state beween
devil and angel).

So (sorry to be so longwinded), I think the answers to both your
questions is no, but with qualifications. I don't think there's going to
be any revelation about actual physical change--Harn is not an inhumu in
any way, IMO, nor are the Neighbors. But I do suspect there is going to
be something about partnership. Somebody in the last few days suggested
that the visit to Urth was triggered by Horn's working in tandem with
Rigoglio. I doubt it. I think an unhuma(u) must always be present for
Horn to swing this telekinetic trick (though it is true that the venue
derived from Rigoglio in this case). And the ability was contributed by
a Neighbor. Still, yours is a more intriguing notion of the "secret,"
than any of the Golden Rule platitudes offered so far!

> Do any others share my impression that Wolfe wishes us
> to equate the City of the Inhumi with Nessus? Are they
> congruent in being accursed?

Congruent, yes; he practically slams us over the head with it. Accursed,
hmmm, see above.

-alga

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From: Alex David Groce <alex_groce at gs246.sp.cs.cmu.edu>
Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 11:17:22 +0000

Hmmm...  Alga's mapping to Origen's ideas is interesting, but I'm not
convinced.  Universalism doesn't strike me as being particularly
Wolfean, given the number especially of short stories that are quite
comfortable in damning a protagonist ("Bed and Breakfast" certainly
doesn't carry much hint of demonic free will).  Also, despite some
obvious intentional points, a simple mapping of the inhumans to demons
or the Neighbors to angels seems false--the Neighbors seem more like
post-Urth Severian, of the "human" order of creation, but
transfigured.  The inhumi are different in that their nature is a
mirror of their prey (their will is reduced but present) but they are
in this a biological analogue also of Wolfe's chems and machine
intelligences--a mirror in this case of their prey rather than their
makers, of course.  This doesn't strike me as very Origenist, in that
except in Severian's visit to get the New Sun I don't think we see
anything that is really meant to be of an angelic nature.

Oreb: I'm still puzzling over which God rides Oreb--and part of me
says "the Outsider, silly."  Does "The Night Chough," which I haven't
read, make this more explicit?  I also find it very interesting that
Oreb, who I think we can all agree is very much a Holy Spirit figure,
is also the primary comic relief in Long and Short Sun.  I think this
is fitting with his Spirit of Truth nature as well, and it reminds me
very faintly of the way Muriel Spark and Flannery O'Connor make use of
terrifying or comical Holy Spirit symbolism.

And by the way, unless I'm recalling incorrectly (which is quite
possible) Origen wasn't precisely "consigned to hell"--a number of his
propsitions (from De Principis mostly, I think) were condemned, but a
number of church figures have defended him as a fundamentally orthodox
fellow carried away with intellectual speculation at times, and
certainly no rebel against Church authority in his day.

--
"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." John 8:32
--
Alex David Groce (agroce+ at cs.cmu.edu)
Ph.D. Student, Carnegie Mellon University - Computer Science Department
8112 Wean Hall (412)-268-3066
http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~agroce

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From: Tim Boolos <timboolos at yahoo.com>
Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 08:26:35 +0000

--- Alice Turner <pei047 at attglobal.net> wrote:

*snip* 

> (this would be how Origen put it--humanity is the
Just a note on Origen.  His heresy charges did not
have to do with the redeemability or not of demons
(that is in line with Orthodox Theology), rather with
the "pre-existence" of souls and a sort of cosmic
recycling that Alga alluded to, among other things. 
Origen was only considered a heretic towards the end
of his life.  His early teachings are still held in
regard among theologians.

As far as Inhumu/demon parallel I found their wanting
to be a 'real' boy or girl (as well as the allusion
near the end of OBW to their being no mor dangerous
than crocodiles) to be more like the wistful passages
in C. S. Lewis' "Screwtape Letters".  Lewis' Screwtape
recognizes that humans are superior to the demons and
on occasion wishes he could have some of the human
advantages, but also recognizes and uses human
weakness and tendency to stray to trap and enslave
them.  Not a perfect allegory, I'll admit, but one
that connected a little for me.

I'm enjoying the theological discussions tremendously.
Like Patera Nutria I am ordained, but in the Eastern
Orthodox Christian Church which shares many
theological notions (and rejects some as well) with
the Catholic Church.  However, I would not like this
board to be exclusively devoted to counting angels on
the head of a pin.

Emrys

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From: Jim Jordan <jbjordan at gnt.net>
Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 22:10:07 +0000

>anything that is really meant to be of an angelic nature.

	FWIW, I find the inhumi rather like Cordwainer Smith's underpeople in some
ways. I don't think they represent the demonic realm in the symbolic
substructure of the series; rather, they mirror the evil in mankind. A much
closer, and very obvious, mirror of angels and demons are the gods of
mainframe: promixate agents of the all-controlling Pantocrator. The essence
of the demonic, in Christian thought, is to tempt and to teach falsely, and
I don't see the inhumi in that role at all. A secondary aspect of the
demonic is to oppress, but in Christianity that is definitely secondary
(while in Manichaean thinking it is primary, since power is the basic
category there); and the inhumi don't get to do much oppressing either; or
rather, they have learned oppression from their human and neighbor
associates. The only thing specifically demonic about them is that they are
parasites. 
	Additionally, I interviewed GW rather closely about his theological
beliefs, because I wanted to understand the Memoirs of Severian better. He
claims to be fully orthodox as a Roman Catholic, and learned from St.
Thomas and of course Chesterton. Of course, he can USE the more heretical
aspects of Origen's thought in a novel if he chooses, but I don't see real
evidence for this. He denied employing gnostic thought as the substructure
of the Severian books, which I had at first thought he was doing -- and of
course, we're in the same fictional universe here. So, I'd be surprised if
Slimina were right on this.
	BTW, thanks from me too, Alga, for the quick list of all the limping
heroes! Fascinating how frequently the motif is encountered, even though it
means different things in various mythic contexts. 
>terrifying or comical Holy Spirit symbolism.

	I tried to speculate on how Oreb could be "ridden" by both Scylla and
Outsider (and, I suggested, be also related to Kypris). Actually, the
solution is quite simple. The Outsider IS God, and is outside the creation.
Thus, He can enter and either override or work with anything inside the
creation at any time. The gods of mainframe simply take people over like
robots, and I guess Oreb also (on occasion, anyway). The gods are part of a
continuum of being, and are more powerful then men. The Outsider is outside
the whole continuum, and is more subtle. Recall The Ruler in "Westwind,"
who says, "I prefer not to interfere directly," or words to that effect.
The Outsider can use Scylla any way He wishes (whether she like is, or is
aware of it, or not), and thus is behind Scylla's riding of Oreb when she
does so.
	I don't know if the Spirit as Comic Relief is in Chesterton, but of
course, Christianity as THE Comic Relief is pure Chesterton, and thus a
huge part of Wolfe's thinking. Oddly, Wolfe's books end in ways that can
suggest tragedy, the pagan opposite of the Divine comedy. But they always
point beyond the end of the story to a final happy ending (e.g., the green
man).
	FWIW.

Patera Nutria

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From: Jim Jordan <jbjordan at gnt.net>
Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 22:14:12 +0000

>board to be exclusively devoted to counting angels on

	There's so much in Wolfe that it would be a real shame to discuss only the
theological aspects. I've tried to call attention to those aspects here,
just as a matter of contributing my expertise. I'm wary of overreading
Wolfe along these lines, but I probably fall into that trap anyway -- as do
all of us in various ways!

Patera Nutria (Presbyterian)

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From: John Clute <jclute at cix.compulink.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 12:19:00 +0000

with Wolfe, it does strike me that the tonus (as distinguished from the 
intellectual doctrinal structuring) of Wolfe's major works is anything but 
Christian. Except maybe in certain parts of the book we are now 
considering, the melacholia is profound: _In Blue's Waters_ , and many of 
the later stories, are acts of heroism (it seems) against a very deep 
sadness, which Christians (and others) might put a term to. I myself would 
tend to cod gnosticism here: it feels like the occlusion or bondage of the 
blinding world, to me. 
        We may see _Return to the Whorl_ continue the transformations of 
tonus audible (I think) in the current book; but I wouldn't exactly bet on 
a triumph of THE comedy.
        But this is a topic without closure. And premature at this point, 
though it is the sort of consideration all the decipherments must be a 
road to.
        (I've just now noticed a later message from you which makes it 
very clear you have some broadly similar thoughts about the subordination 
of all schemas (even those we can legitimately pin on Wolfe himself) to 
the summae which is the felt work of art, sort of thing.)

Best,
John C