{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/whorl/969", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "whorl", "thread": { "id": 969, "subject": "Babbie and Horn: In A Pig's Eye", "messages": 4, "voices": 3, "first": "2000-08-23T14:35:08+00:00", "last": "2000-08-23T23:44:48+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Robert Borski", "address": "rborski at charter.net" }, "date": "2000-08-23T14:35:08+00:00", "subject": "(whorl) Babbie and Horn: In A Pig's Eye", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ian Smith having previously written:\n\n< \"I found him in the forest, sitting in the dark under the trees. I could\nnot see him, it was too dark to see anything. But I knelt beside him, and\nlay my head upon his knee, and he comforted me.\" (OBW p.378)>\n\n\n\nTo which Nick Gevers responded:\n\n\n\nMy reading of the scene in question is somewhat different than everyone\nelse's, I suspect, because I've always seen Babbie as more than a simple\nhus.\n\nFirst off, he's the gift of Circean Mucor, which plays to the Homeric angle\nof transformed animals.\n(\"Babbie's more like people,\" \"Babbie's a person,\" etc., etc.)\n\nSecondly, as Mucor says her goodbye to Horn from the cliff, there is this\npassage:\n\n\"At the top of the cliff, I saw a small dark figure that seemed almost a\ncluster of boys, or two men upon their hands and knees. It vanished, then\nreappeared as it made a flying leap from the top of the cliff. For the\nmoment I thought its target was the sloop, and that it would strike it and\ndie. It sent up a waterspout five cubits from the tip of the bowsprit,\nhowever, and vanished as if it had sunk like a stone.\" (OBW, 105)\n\nOn the very next page, however, Horn writes:\n\n\"I see that when I described my departure from Mucor's Rock, I never\nactually mentioned that Babbie came on board, his black snout and little red\neyes breaking water just aft of the rudder, and his stubby forepaws\nclutching the gunwale beside me that reminded me unpleasantly of the\nleatherskin.\"\n\nAlmost certainly the \"cluster of boys, or two men on their hands and knees\"\nis a Neighbor. Given that \"it\" jumps into the water, and Babbie suddenly\nappears, I don't think it's unreasonable to conclude they're one and the\nsame.\n\nThirdly, when Horn is lying in the pit, he records the following\nobservation:\n\n\"I kept my eyes closed, knowing that it would be painful to look at the sun.\nIt vanished, and I opened them to see what had become of it, and saw\nBabbie's familiar, hairy mask peering at me over the edge of the pit.\" (195)\n\nI maintain that *mask* is the key word here. It's also possible that the\n\"sharp faces\" Horn sees while in the pit (note the plural) are a Neighbor's\n(the glittering eyes appear to belong to Krait).\nBut almost certainly the following passage refers to a Neighbor, although it\nis recollected later:\n\n\"Once, as I lay there at the bottom of the pit, it seems to me that a man\nwith a long nose (a tall man or an immense spider) stood over me. I did not\nmove or even open my eyes, knowing that if I did he would be gone. He\ntouched my forehead with something he held, and the pit vanished.\" (203)\n\nThe \"long nose\" attribute, I suspect, may be another clue linking Babbie\nwith the Neighbor, and for what it's worth a very similar scene to the \"He\ntouched my forehead with something he held\" occurrs in GREEN, when Horn is\nannointed with sweet-smelling oil by a Neighbor.\n\nFourthly, and very close to the episode under discussion, Seawrack notes the\nfollowing: \"When [Babbie] goes into the trees, it will be a real person\ngoing in there. But he won't be a real person for long.\" (340)\n\nFinally, we reach the scene in question. Horn writes:\n\n\"After a time that seemed long to me, three or four hours I would guess,\nwhen I was practically alseep too, I heard myself calling Babbie.\n\n\"Certain that I had been dreaming nad had spoken aloud in a dream that I\ncould no longer remember, I rubbed my eyes and rolled onto my hands and\nknees.\"\n\nShortly thereafter:\n\n\"Someone on shore called again for Babbie, and I understood that he meant\nme...He who called me seemed quite near, and he called me with more urgency\nthan Seawrack ever has.\"\n\nBut how does Horn reach the conclusion that whoever's calling Babbie is\nactually calling for him? This seems more an element of dream logic than\nanything else, and if I had to bet the farm on anything, I'd wager it's a\nmisapprehension; that either \"Babbie\" himself is calling out his name\n(\"Babbie can talk\") in order to lure Horn into the woods (perhaps to say\ngoodbye), or that another Neighbor is calling Babbie. What seems to justify\nto most of you the interpretation that Horn has switched personalities with\nBabbie is the line about how Horn \"knelt beside him and laid my head upon\nhis knee, and he comforted me.\" But if Babbie really is a Neighbor, and has\nresumed his native form, couldn't this be a Neighbor's knee, given that we\nknow the Vanished People are all extremely tall?\n\nI'd also like to note what appears to be Horn's last word on the subject,\nwhich takes place during his stay with Brother and Sister. Writes he: \"I\nasked them about the Vanished Gods. They said there was one in the forest,\nso I told them about him.\" Apparently at least he believes he's seen a\nVanished God--perhaps indicative of some intermediate shape Babbie has\ntaken, but one not recognizable to Horn as either Neighbor or Babbie.\n\nOn a related note I also continue to hold out that Babbie may reappear as\nPig in the final Short Sun book. Babbie, as Mucor tells Incanto, has\nreturned to her Rock, but given the enormous difficulty this must have\nencompassed, crossing leagues of ocean and land, I find it rather difficult\nto believe that a mere hus--even an extremely intelligent and resourceful\none--could manage the journey. In other words, if the Neighbors can morph\nthemselves along theric lines, why not human? Hence perhaps Babbie's return\nis actually from the Whorl.\n\nI also find the following line from Blue intriguing: \"Because I could not\nleave Pig blind, these people were able to bring me here, and so ended any\nchance of success I might have had.\" In adventures still to come, will Horn\ndonate an eye to Pig and spend the rest of his life half-blind?\n\nRobert Borski\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Kevin J. Maroney", "address": "kmaroney at ungames.com" }, "date": "2000-08-23T15:56:10+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) Babbie and Horn: In A Pig's Eye", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 02:35 PM 8/23/00 -0500, Robert Borski wrote:\nThirdly, when Horn is lying in the pit, he records the following\nobservation:\n\n\"I kept my eyes closed, knowing that it would be painful to look at the sun.\nIt vanished, and I opened them to see what had become of it, and saw\nBabbie's familiar, hairy mask peering at me over the edge of the pit.\" (195)\n\nI maintain that *mask* is the key word here. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You may be over-reading. Merriam-Webster gives this for \"mask\": \n\n4 a : the head or face of an animal (as a fox or dog) b : an area (as the\none around the eyes) of an animal's face that is distinguished by usually\ndarker coloring \n\nWhile it would certainly be like Wolfe to deliberately code meaning into\nthat word, it's also a perfect example of Wolfe using precisely the right\nword where most authors would use an approximation. " }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": " Kevin Maroney | Unplugged Games \n kmaroney at ungames.com | (212) 777-1190\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "William Ansley", "address": "wansley at warwick.net" }, "date": "2000-08-23T23:44:48+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) Babbie and Horn: In A Pig's Eye", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 2:35 PM -0500 8/23/00, Robert Borski wrote:\nI also find the following line from Blue intriguing: \"Because I could not\nleave Pig blind, these people were able to bring me here, and so ended any\nchance of success I might have had.\" In adventures still to come, will Horn\ndonate an eye to Pig and spend the rest of his life half-blind?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Wow! I agree with you on this one Robert.\n\nWay back on Tue, 19 Oct 1999, so long ago that I still felt clever \nfor figuring out that Olivine was Hammerstone and Marble's daughter, \nI wrote this." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Horn gave his eye to Pig. And Marble's daughter gave up one of her eyes for\nher mother." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "[Long passage citing textual evidence that Olivine is Hammerstone and \nMarble's daughter, and other stuff, snipped. Of course I eventually \nrealized that the reason no one else had mentioned this idea before \nme was that everyone else had figured it out already and thought is \nwas too obvious to mention.]" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "William Ansley\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "William Ansley", "address": "wansley at warwick.net" }, "date": "2000-08-23T23:23:25+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) Babbie and Horn: In A Pig's Eye", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 2:35 PM -0500 8/23/00, Robert Borski wrote:\n\nSecondly, as Mucor says her goodbye to Horn from the cliff, there is this\npassage:\n\n\"At the top of the cliff, I saw a small dark figure that seemed almost a\ncluster of boys, or two men upon their hands and knees. It vanished, then\nreappeared as it made a flying leap from the top of the cliff. For the\nmoment I thought its target was the sloop, and that it would strike it and\ndie. It sent up a waterspout five cubits from the tip of the bowsprit,\nhowever, and vanished as if it had sunk like a stone.\" (OBW, 105)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "[...]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Almost certainly the \"cluster of boys, or two men on their hands and knees\"\nis a Neighbor. Given that \"it\" jumps into the water, and Babbie suddenly\nappears, I don't think it's unreasonable to conclude they're one and the\nsame." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Almost certainly, it will surprise no long-time readers of this \ndiscussion list, least of all you Robert, that I disagree strongly \nwith this interpretation. It is just so *unnecessary*!\n\nIt is *completely* certain to me that an eight-legged creature \none-third(?) the height of a man will look more like a cluster of \n(shorter than a man) boys or two men on their hands and knees (short \n- because doubled over - and with eight leg-like - because of \nposition - limbs) than a Neighbor, who is as tall as or taller than a \nman and has only four leg-like limbs (and, of course, four arm-like \nones).\n\nPerhaps the point Wolfe is trying to make here is that, even after \nbeing on Blue so many years, Horn (and, presumably, most over people \nborn on the Whorl) still are not used to the fact that almost all the \nnative wildlife has at least twice as many limbs as is \"natural.\" (I \nam sticking with my belief that the leatherskin may have 12 legs, \nwhich I stated in a message months ago.)" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "William Ansley\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] } ] }